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Epinions... (Reply to this comment)
by firstcontact21
Is in many ways a marketer's dream and worst nightmare all rolled into one. It's interesting to note that so many people agree on the following:
1. They HATE pop-up ads and always close or minimize them WITHOUT going to the site the ad is trying to promote. I've never visited a site from a pop-up ad.
2. They hate banner ads because they take up so much space and they 96% of the time people ignore them.
The problem with the Internet is, most people know what they want already. A site like epinions is great because people can read reviews on products they think they want. It can help solidify their decision making process.
On the other hand, many people still don't trust online purchasing (even though experts say its safer then shopping in stores - in terms of credit card security that is). So you have all these ads, and a lot of people that never click on them, and probably don't even trust buying online.
So where does that leave Epinions? How do you keep everyone happy - and how do you make money?
I've always loved the idea of Epinions - from the first time I saw their tv-commercials back in the late 1990s. I think it's a marvelous idea, a consumer report by real people. In fact, if I was Epinions, I'd consider going into a magazine format - have a monthly EPINIONS magazine that features the best of the online reviews in all the top categories. I honestly think people would buy it if marketed properly.
And I wish Epinions had stronger relationships with other sites that sell products - on sites like Amazon.com, where they have reviews of their own products by people who have used them - there should really be EPINIONS reviews at the bottom of those pages - with links back to Epinions for even more reviews.
I think those are the kind of grand things Epinions should be doing to attract more people to the site. And I wish they'd remember one thing: KISS or Keep It Simple Silly!
The Epinions site used to be so simple to use and navigate; now with a lot more stuff on it, and so many changes that have occurred over the years, it's not so simple as it once was.
Overall, Epinions is great and I hope it stays around for a long time to come. It has already outlived other similar sites like Writtenbyme.com that have come and gone. I agree with everything in your review, Epinions has a lot to work on and time will only tell.
- Steve =)
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Aug 11 '02
10:36 am PDT
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But it is still a Business (Reply to this comment)
by starkester
Great Review
I admire your candid demeanor and you are right.
I hear the other people making comments and complaints, they sound like a bunch of Union employees trying to control the employer. And what happens today? The employer goes out of business because of the union strong hold. I must be wrong I thought that this was for fun and to share information on goods and services. Much to my surprise that this is whole sub culture. I have read your work and I am impressed. I hope that you stick around.
From a Newby
Tim
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Dec 27 '01
9:36 am PST
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Still Appropriate in Light of Current Events (Reply to this comment)
by OpalMan
Hi Victoria,
Yes, this is still approriate in light of current events. I think part of the problem is that Epinions doesn't like to fix what is almost working. They tend to cut off the entire arm because they have a hang-nail. I was an Advisor and bacame a TR and Editor and still think what they did was wrong. They didn't need to completely re-do what they had, just modify it a little.
Now with the recent events they have again shown that they would rather scrap something that is only slightly out of whack, rather than take the time to fix it. Ideally, they would have changed to only paying the reviews that made them money (or potentially would). Once again they have taken the easy way out.
I think the quote my wife has had up on her profile page sums up what has happened recently here. "If you expect the worst in people, you are sure to find it." Abe Lincoln was a pretty wise man. Maybe next time Epinions brass wants to make a change, it will happen.
Thanks for Writing such a great article
James
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Oct 30 '01
9:54 am PST
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Someone finally did it.... (Reply to this comment)
by queenofallevil
....you hit this one right on the money babe!
Kudos to you!
Val
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Sep 23 '01
4:07 pm PDT
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Shoulda Woulda Coulda (Reply to this comment)
by slau_parker
Well, I've been reading several of your editorials tonight, because I accidentally stumbled across you (can't remember why, don't ask). So far its been a mostly interesting read, but now its high time for me to go to sleepy land, and if an editorial topic/product has over 25 reviews written, I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to read every single one of them. Why? Because I have two babies under 5 months of age, and one husband that desires (and deserves) most of my time and attention. If there are 67,294 reviews on one topic, I generally skim to spot the most interesting titles and the writers that have so far caught my attention. So I sincerely apologize, because I have a feeling I might possibly have given you an "MH" for this editorial, but will not be able to under my own (current and still changing) rating criteria.
Cheers, you're a wonderful writer anyway.
Sarah
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Sep 16 '01
10:52 pm PDT
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You make valid points (Reply to this comment)
by platypus55
even though I don't agree with all of them.
I don't need Epinions or anyone else to gain a sense of self worth.
Speaking as an Epinions peon (I don't have time to pursue a hat for myself) I don't respect or fear anybody any more or less just because they have a hat or don't. In fact sometimes the opposite--I wonder about the people who actually do get the hats. They are the ones who happen to have the numbers in their favor at the time. I do not respect nor acknowledge any position that is selected by a bot unless it is a h*ll of a bot that has access to terrific linguistic and style database with sophisticated algorithms to analyze the articles, as well as all sorts of specific data for each of the product categories listed here. Epinions bots are just glorified tallybots. They Know NOTHING. It's still just a combination weight/popularity contest.
And your mom needn't worry. ;)
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Sep 13 '01
10:27 am PDT
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Totally agree... (Reply to this comment)
by dkozin
Also, I don't understand how Epinions can change things around when they still have such an unstable site, periodic loss of data and two sets of email alerts being sent out for half a year.
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Sep 10 '01
2:07 pm PDT
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Don't pull any punches... (Reply to this comment)
by Schlamozzel
... tell us how you really feel! ;)
Great review. I do hope they get their heads out of the financial sand.
Schlamozzel
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Sep 07 '01
3:05 pm PDT
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Yeah, it's frustrating. (Reply to this comment)
by Horswispr
I've had my Advisorship(s) taken away, given back, and taken away again. I more or less stopped taking it all seriously. As for the MH, I don't use it (with one exception). I think they just feel the need to shake things up now and then. One thing I WILL say for Epinions: THEY PAY, though it's only a tiny bit. Themestream disappeared, owing its writers thousands, Writtenbyme is delinquent in "payments," and Bright Idea is a joke. I'm just going to keep on writing and reading for the fun of it, and let the chips fall where they may. I don't even remember which of my favorite writers are Advisors, or whatever they're called right now. It makes no difference to me. But Epinions does have to strike a delicate balance: Insult its writers too much, and they lose what makes the site work.
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Sep 05 '01
9:33 pm PDT
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You're Great and You're a Pilgrim (Reply to this comment)
by sumo_rhino
What a detailed bit of understanding and insight. Why don't you overthrow Nirav and assume control.
I'd be your sergeant-at-arms.
- sumo_rhino
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Sep 05 '01
8:49 am PDT
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Excellent (Reply to this comment)
by annexation
I’ve pretty much given up hope for ever attaining even Top Reviewer status, much less Editor
That's a good thing. Seriously. Aspiration for those titles will suck the literary life outta ya. Simply aspire to enjoy yourself. The rest just kinda falls in place.
VH
-Mark
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Sep 04 '01
8:08 am PDT
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One more comment (Reply to this comment)
by dcn42
I didn't know how the old system worked and I don't know how the new system works. Personally, I DO see the sense in separating the reading and writing aspects of epinions. Someone could be an expert in say, computer software and write excellent reviews on products without being much of a reader of general reviews.
Another person could be an avid reader (and good judge) of epinions without any expertise in a field. Some people might be both. But you need people to spend a lot of time checking new reviews in order to rate the NH's and weed out the drivel, as well as grade the VH, SH, H so that the cream rises to the top.
The thing that I don't like about the large button displayed next to Editors' names is that it just takes up too much room! It's unneccessary because we know who the editors and top reviewers are, or we could easily find out.
Thanks for reading my comment,
susie
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Sep 02 '01
6:53 pm PDT
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Good, thorough review (Reply to this comment)
by maceyr
If I were to make some suggestions, first of all, I would crack down on the abusers and multiple accounts that bleed the system. That could be to keep track of the ip addresses or cookies. But, of course, many are still on the dial up system so the ip addresses will change. They should implement a policy of absolute no multiple accounts, review padding and other abuses and to cancel all such accounts immediately. Hopefully, that will greatly decrease the unnecessary cash flow out of Epinions.
And I've always thought the VH, H, SH and NH ratings were too vague. They should go to a 1 - 10 rating so that over time, great reviews would get up to the top, eliminating the need for the MH button.
As for the editors, top reviewers, advisors, etc designation, they should implement a voting system by Epinion members rather than using a bot. At least it will be a personal thing rather than a bot thing.
Just my opinion.
May
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Sep 02 '01
8:16 am PDT
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You Wrote a Well Thought Out, Thorough Review (Reply to this comment)
by OpalMan
However, you failed to do what everyone else has failed to do in their rants about the new system. Don't just complain, offer a suggestion for improvement. For example, you mentioned that it had become fairly easy to become an Advisor and that it had been abused, what would you do about it?
I did VH your review because it was very good. However, have you thought about what you would do in their shoes?
I am one of the lucky ones who did get a new hat. However, I don't really like the new system either. The new roles are pretentious and less friendly. Many good people who should have gotten hats didn't, why? Not because Epinions arbitrarily chose not to give them one, but just maybe they did not meet the higher standards that were set. I have talked with a few former advisors who admitted that they had not done as much in July as they usually did.
As far as changes that Epinions has made, why should we be paid for public rants about the site itself. I personally liked that change. The next one I hope to see is that Epinions stops paying Overall NH reviews. That would save them money and wipe out some abusers.
Last, but certainly not least, please wait until the next round of selections to see what happens with the former advisors. I think you will find many of them regaining their hats.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt I had to respond with a slightly different viewpoint.
James
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Sep 02 '01
1:04 am PDT
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Some great points, but I say give the new system some more time. (Reply to this comment)
by grimjack2
Greatpilgrim,
I'm torn what to say in this comment about your epinion. You are definitely one of the leaders in the book section on Epinions as far as I'm concerned. Aside from your high quality writing, you have easily been the person who has given me the most helpful comments and support since I began. I was very surprised to see that you lost your advisor rating, especially when I saw some of the people who had kept theirs under the editor/top reviewer names.
I don't want to contradict what you say in any way, but I do think that there were some steps taken in the right direction. I like the fact that it is a little harder to become an advisor. I'm not quite sure how much I like the fact that they broke the new system down into two separate categories though, since I think you have to both read and rate to be considered an Epinion expert.
What bugs me most of all about the people who kept their elite status is that it looks primarily based on the average number of VH ratings they got. One guy in a category has only written about 60 reviews, and hasn't even written anything in over four months! Yet, he has an average readership of around 150+. He may deserve it, but I think a person should have more than about 60 reviews to be considered an advisor.
I also think the Most Helpful rating will benefit in the long run. I like one more level of rating to give, that is stronger than the rest. I also think it is a great thing that you can only vote for it once in each category. I think the biggest problem may be with the name 'MH'. I imagine if they called it something like "supremely helpful" all this controversy may not be there.
I fear that the newer reviews will quickly outweigh the older reviews due to the new rating, but that may be a small price to pay for helping to stem the rubberstampers that have gotten out of control.
I don't disagree with any of your statements about Epinion's lack of care about the writers these days, but I do think that the changes were made to benefit all of us, not just them.
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Sep 01 '01
10:21 pm PDT
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Boy did i enjoy this epinion! (Reply to this comment)
by glomarrone
Hi,
I really don't agree that one has to read all past epinions before one grants the coveted MH. That is impossible. No one has the time to do that and still read and rate new epinions. I don't think that was the meaning behind it. I think it means that the epinion was beyond Very Helpful. It was above the highest rating. If you read one that is even better than the one you previously rated you can change your mind and rate the new one higher. It doesn't have to stick forever.
I don't give essays a MH because they cover such a wide variety of epinions. I have given them for specific products and I only once had to choose between one previously rated MH and a new one. I think this rating is over-blown. It is not a life and death decision. I think members should lighten up on this rating. Just use it as one more way you have of recognizing excellent writers.
I'm sorry you lost your title. Lots of great writers did also. I lost a hat on the previous go round and regained a different top hat this time. So, I understand how you feel. I may lose my new one in the next go round but does it really matter? The hat doesn't determine who I (or you) am - it is arbitrary. It comes it goes and life goes on.
I'll continue to read your epinions because I enjoy your writing. It doesn't matter to me if you wear a hat or don't. You may get one back next time. Changing titles so often is dumb, I agree. The system isn't working but we don't have a say. You DO have a say in what you write, so write what pleases you. I am not impressed by titles - even my own. Don't give up on the site. Eventually, your high quality epinions will be recognized. I also have no idea of how they pick members for the titles. They will never tell. Maybe the qualifications vary. I am very surprised at some of the hats given out as you are. It really doesn't make any sense.
See you again. I apologize for the length. I tend to do that on this site. Thanks for listening.
Gloria
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Sep 01 '01
6:03 pm PDT
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Great observations... (Reply to this comment)
by teddiec
I had this weird thought..
What if I read (and rated) too much in a category I know little about and accidently got editorized! hehe. It could happen, and probably has in many cases. For example, I tend to read more in the movies and books because 1)I find them more enjoyable to read and 2) I want to learn-I know I'm weak in these areas. I have to agree the separation of titles for writing and reading seems a bad idea..
Ellen
ps-I had to laugh a little at that last part. Since the PTB at Epinions don't read us, you can probably tell your Mom not to worry-lol.
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Sep 01 '01
5:15 pm PDT
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Let's sum up. (Reply to this comment)
by CurtisEdmonds
1. Epinions is a business, run (if we're going to be optimistic) for a profit by people with technical and business expertise. (It used to be a technically better site run on poor financial lines, now it's a technically wonky site run by beancounters.)
2. Because Epinions is run by techies and accountants, and because it basically has a monopoly in its market, it has a typically dense and ham-fisted attitude towards customer service. It is high-tech, but not high-touch.
3. Because of this, over the course of time, eventually Epinions will offend, annoy, frustrate, and anger everyone it comes in contact with. Sooner or later, something will happen to each of us -- late or reduced IS distributions, losing a "Top Reviewer" hat, lost checks, something -- that will cause us to be hostile and resentful.
4. Because of this, Epinions is faced with a morass of complaints about everything it does from everyone, which makes the attitude of its customer service people more and more insular and defensive. (Think here of the way the cable company acts, or the way university financial aid staffs react to problems. "This school would run just fine if it weren't for the students.")
5. Add to this the contraction of the dot-com economy, with the uncertainty of jobs among Epinions staffers, and the reductions in payouts among Epinions writers.
This is not your basic formula for good times and parties. This is a system that all but guarantees total trench warfare between Epinions and its writers, with all the hostility, resentment, and violent emotion that entails. In trench warfare, the location doesn't matter, the two forces could be fighting for any old hill or field or target. The metaphor holds here; anything that happens, no matter how innocuous -- the Most Helpful button, or rearranging of site elements -- is going to set someone off and start people shooting at each other.
I think you have provided some good advice and counsel for those that choose to stay and fight the good fight.
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Sep 01 '01
4:53 pm PDT
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Adding to the sea of comments - (Reply to this comment)
by KMINER
I can see that you've thought about this for a while, as you didn't rip this out when the changes first occured -
I feel the site handled me well, but know I am in the minority and I too wonder what will happen in the months to come ...
let me just say again that, though I love this site, it does not determine my worth, so any hard feelings stop before they start -
there is so much you wrote about, I'd like to just touch on 1 --
I feel somewhat positive about the Editor role, and have not really felt much about the TR role, as I have suddenly seen an increase in constructive comments since the change - I feel many people were skimming and just clicking away, and the site forced those who wanted to try for the Editorship to take the time to help out others, leave nice comments, talk about the product, and utilize the site further -
hope I made sense :o)
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Sep 01 '01
3:21 pm PDT
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Fantastic Review!!!!!!!! (Reply to this comment)
by Lark729_89
I can write about what I want and whenever I want to This about sums it up. I love it!!!!
Thanks for sharing your feelings on this issue. Great Epinion!!!!
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Sep 01 '01
2:53 pm PDT
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Hi nice job on this...I (Reply to this comment)
by jo.com
would cash out if I could, but try as I might, there seems to be a bug!! Also, I r/r in every category, not just mine; but I am leaving more comments than I used to . jo
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Sep 01 '01
2:40 pm PDT
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Informative insight (Reply to this comment)
by ktryathart1
I now use those MOST HELPFUL titles like Oscar awards. And I've only awarded them to two people. I think they are for people like you who really take the time to take apart whatever the subject and then rebuild it from the ground up with theories and sound ideas.
Having been on Epinions for almost two years, I been here for the very good times to the struggling times now.
I too lost my advisor title (don't use hat as I have never liked wearing hats, they cause mussy hair;-)) but it hasn't bothered me that much because I write for a living and I know I'm a better writer than half of what I read on epinions. I just don't put as much editing (maybe because that is part of what I do at work) in to what I write here for pennies.
Ultimately...enjoyed this review to the max.
BJ
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Sep 01 '01
2:38 pm PDT
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Not on Target (Reply to this comment)
by neomartin
It's important to notice problems and discuss them. However, problem discussion with no solutions doesn't aid in problem solving. Some solutions were presented, but they come more from impulse than from deliberation.
__________________________________________________
When it comes to using the MH rating, I see the use MH as a no-brainer. How so?
• On every opinion page which gets rated is the question "Of all reviews on this product, is this review the [Most Helpful]"-- that question is asked of each person reading the opinion.
• Each person is limited to one MH per item per category. Some opinions will have two or more MH ratings because readers of the opinions deemed an opinion worthy of the MH.
• However, if future opinions are written which prove to be head-and-shoulders above the currently-rated MH opinion, then the older MH can be replaced by a VH so that the head-and-shoulders-above-the-previous-MH-rated opinion can get the MH instead.
There is no law which says MH is fixed for all time. Giving an MH to an opinion for an item containing hundreds or thousands of opinions is a daunting task, so it is nearly impossible to give an MH rating for opinions in those categories. Unless all the opinions in such categories are read, it makes no sense to answer the question "Of all reviews on this product, is this review the [Most Helpful]"-- and an MH rating is subject to change when worthier opinions are written over time.
__________________________________________________
When it comes to the change from Advisors to Editors-Top Reviewers, who says people who lost status this month won't regain status this month or next month? Who says today's new Epinions members don't deserve Editors-Top Reviewers status if they qualify?
I don't know how selection of Advisors was made or Editors-Top Reviewers is made, but if selection cycles are monthly and there is a time lag involved then I wouldn't be surprised if lack of activity contributed to loss of status. As I see it, loss of status may hurt the ego (we all have egos, so the hurt is natural), but loss of status is not permanent.
__________________________________________________
The change in layout was disturbing just because I grew used to the layout used as recently as last week. Changes happen on the web all the time, so I won't get too stressed over it. If you want to talk about disorienting web page layout changes, ESPN.com is the perfect example with its 4 major changes over a year or two.
__________________________________________________
The opinion was helpful in that it outlined a number of concerns. For the solutions which were presented, I had to respectfully differ because I expected more.
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Sep 01 '01
2:37 pm PDT
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oh greatpilgrim (Reply to this comment)
by mattjoe
you are wrong!
YOu say how you want to be a somebody on epinions again, just because you lost their little title, you are no longer a lesser person.
Keep in mind that at one point you were actually plagarized. (sp)
I have not even been plgrizd.
It takes a somebody to have their stuff stolen and passed off as someone elses.
As always,
I am,
the people's expert.
Matt
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Sep 01 '01
2:05 pm PDT
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I was thrilled.... (Reply to this comment)
by naphtalia
when I found out I had been made an "editor" in movies. I had never been an advisor before because (I believe) I wasn't focussed enough in my writing. I was told my new hat (with the pretty "e" feather) was because I left good comments. I was delighted. Maybe the people I left comments for didn't read them, but someone had.
Then I started zoning in on comments left by other advisors. Many are very helpful and I've learned a lot. Many are just leaving any old comment. IMHO, the comments I leave aren't being read, just counted. Suddenly, the new hat isn't so special.
As to the MH, I'm saving it for those articles that floor me....the ones that make me email my family and friends and say "You gotta read this!" So far, though I've read many VH opinions, none has gotten an MH. I wish there was a button for "MR" (must read) instead of this silly MH which I feel is almost unusable.
talia
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Sep 01 '01
1:28 pm PDT
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Well... (Reply to this comment)
by dantesguide
Just in my humble opinion, the whole TR and editor deal are way over rated. Many of the best writers at this sight don't have these titles. You write some of the best book reviews here, and you not having the Top Reviewer hat isn't gonna change my mind on that. Same thing with 4-1-1 in the gourmet category.
I have to agree with you on the new format. I find it plain awful. The fact that the reviewers picture has been shoved down and to the right tells a tale in itself. I was always tuaght that the most important parts of any page are always up and to the left. Coincidence?
I agree with you on how to use the MH button. I have found that by looking at the other reviews (if there isn't too many)in that category, I find myself dishing out a lot more "helpful" and "somewhat helpful" ratings than I have in the past. My only concern is that I have been reading a lot of shampoo reviews lately, and they may make me an editor in beauty. Ack! You have the same fear with electronics.
I think part of the reason Epinions gave us this "MH" button, was to get people writing on categories that hadn't been reviewed before. Since it's been installed, I have seen many reviewers shifting to virgin categories. Everyone want's to be the first to try to get those "MH"s. I don't see as many reviews on McDonalds and the like, so maybe that was what they were hoping for?
You make some great points. Keep up the great work. You're on my WoT for a reason:)
dantesguide
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Sep 01 '01
1:24 pm PDT
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Great essay! (Reply to this comment)
by bonniesayers
This was an enjoyable read and I have felt the same way. Now it is time to have fun and write when I feel like it and read and rate how I see fit.
This change coincided with kids going back to school so now my free time will not be limited to just this site anymore.
Bonnie
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Sep 01 '01
1:16 pm PDT
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Wonderful review! (Reply to this comment)
by sweetsue_98
It really makes no sense. In November I will have been here for two years. All I every wanted was to be a travel advisor. I wrote about every place we went from Asia to Europe, and tons a cruises. One day this little letter appeared on my screen and I was a travel advisor. I appreciated this, and most of all felt that I was deserving. Well, my irritation when the new system rolled out left me with no Editor title, and a Most Popular in Home and Garden. Just want I want to write about, pots and pans, and how many dishwasher, ranges, etc can you review that you actually own.
My beef is that there were people selected in the travel category that had lower total reads, fewer reviews, etc. One travel person only writes about parks. Isn't it a bigger picture than that.
One person I know who had been an advisor, received a letter saying she was being made an Editor. She was thrilled, UNTIL the day came, and those big gaudy buttons by names appeared, and she wasn't and Editor. After weeks of waiting for an answer to her e-mail to epinions, they wrote back that they had made a mistake.
Others were selected in categories when they had not written a single review for three months. Now that really makes sense.
I loved what you had to say. I am through being mad, and am going to continue to write my travel reviews and if they chose to ignore my "addiction" so be it.
Merriem
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Sep 01 '01
1:00 pm PDT
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Re: I+was+confused+by+the+MH,+thanks! (Reply to this comment)
by Greatpilgrim
Don't feel alone, Peggy! The whole Most Helpful issue is way too complex. I only use it when I am totally wowed by a review. Otherwise, like many other people at this site, I am choosing to ignore this new rating option. I feel it's too exclusive. I can't help but think about all the people who will want to write a review of something but won't because the current article has garnered all the MHs.
Victoria
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Sep 01 '01
12:44 pm PDT
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Excellent & thoughtful review. (Reply to this comment)
by donnamr
And well written without the knee-jerking anger of so many other reactions from others immediately in the aftermath of all these changes. One personal comment: I will probably never use the "Most Helpful" button, because I will never be confident that I can read all of the opinions on any subject, and certainly will not be able to keep up on subsequent reviews after my rating is assigned. So it's a wasted category as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for your insight!
Donna
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Sep 01 '01
12:37 pm PDT
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