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You have a point (Reply to this comment)
by ifif1938
but it still stinks the way they did it..
The review I wrote wasn't meant to be hurtful to anyone,,just a tongue in cheek travel review that I will delete when I can. I think!
Take care
Barbara
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Oct 29 '01
1:32 pm PST
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Thanks Tom (Reply to this comment)
by cyndilouwhoo
For so sensibly articulating a point of view I think everyone needs to consider before acting.
I totally disagree, btw ;-)
Quite a thought provoking piece.
Cyndi
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Oct 29 '01
12:34 pm PST
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Re: Re: My fingers are crossed... (Reply to this comment)
by pluckyduck
Hey Tom-
First the amusing part, oh my reviews were *highly* edited. I had so many goof ups on the last review I published, I had to pull it back in draft mode 6 times while it was still on the first page of the fence. Now, one could easily argue that was because I am an IDIOT and just couldn't see the problems I kept tweaking until the publish button was hit. (I write in Word, BTW, and use spell check, but even Bill Gates couldn't plan properly to avoid all of my goofs.)
As far as my three reviews in 2001, vs the 37 in 2000 and how that affects my perspective....I guess that if one measured caring about the issue at hand by the productivity of an incredibly stubborn muse, I'd be pretty far down the caring scale. The fact that I do care, and obviously pretty deeply, means that the number of 2001 reviews aren't an accurate measure.
However this all turns out, I'm going to spend my energy assuming that people's motivations are based on sincerely held beliefs, no matter which side of the fence they fall. Good people can disagree and still be good people.
Thanks,
Andrea
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Oct 29 '01
3:03 am PST
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Re: My fingers are crossed... (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Andrea... thanks for commenting. I don't quite understand your perspective, being that you published but three reviews during the whole of 2001 before publishing your EBD contribution.
Not one of these reviews were edited during 2001.
I don't know what to make of that....
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
10:59 pm PST
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Re: Very Well Done (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Thank you, Glenda. I, too, am "surprised at some of the rather reputable writers who have lowered their standards by behaving in the manner of filthy language, totally off topic reviews, and hatred."
They say they want "respect." To get respect, one needs to show respect. So say I.
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
9:43 pm PST
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Re: No stones... (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Thanks MJ from Buffalo.
I agree that members should have the right to delete reviews. But... do members have the right to post off-topic reviews and violate the Epinions user agreement? I think not. Some people wanting to delete their reviews have not even bothered to ask Epinions to remove them. Communication is a two-way street.
Thanks for commenting.
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
9:37 pm PST
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Re: What can we do about it anyway? (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Thanks Mike. You ask: What can we do about it anyway?
The short answer, for those who are really impatient and upset; QUIT. Write to Epinions and ask to have your account cancelled.
Thanks for your comments and song parodies. They are the best reviews for those looking for a smile and a laugh.
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
9:24 pm PST
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Re: I agree too... (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Thanks Matt. You said it best: "EBD is dumb you guys could at least wait to see how things turn out."
Looks more and more like people are participating just for the pennies. If not, then maybe they really are wanting to get kicked off the site and have all eroyalties cancelled. The next few days should be pretty interesting.
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
9:19 pm PST
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Re: I agree! (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Thanks Bonnie. I agree: the reviews that "sling the 'F' word all over the place" -- really are disturbing.
The word doesn't bother me... it's the hate that is projected by its use that bothers me.
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
9:07 pm PST
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Re: Bravo! (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Hello Donna. Thanks for your support. I agree: let's wait and see what happens... but the Epinion haters, well... they should just leave and stop vandalizing the site. Otherwise, they betray their interest here.
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
9:01 pm PST
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Re: My little comment.. (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Thank you, Karen, for your comment.
I, too, have NH'ed a number of the particularly offensive EBD reviews. I trust that those who posted these rants understand that their reviews really are not helpful. They simply took a penny from Epinions. Where does that put them in the grand scheme of things?
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Tom / 4-1-1
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Oct 28 '01
8:50 pm PST
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a very level, well-written piece (Reply to this comment)
by wivabef
and I know about the opportunistic folks who couldn't wait to have a reason to swear and be peverse...
however...
many of us chose this as a peaceful way to speak up and be heard -- at last. Very few of the suggestions members have made have ever been implemented, we have only been humored with smilie ridden chats.
So, I feel I must respond to my only critique with your piece -- "shame on you" -- I am not at all ashamed.
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Oct 28 '01
7:59 pm PST
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Most Helpful As Always.... (Reply to this comment)
by jcrismon
Tom, as always you are a fabulous writer, putting things in perspective; I would rate this MH, but I rated your last one on Epinions MH so, I'm stuck. Once again, you have eloquently stated what so many have tried to say out of frustration. Write on!!
Jennifer
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Oct 28 '01
6:37 pm PST
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No Rocks From Me (Reply to this comment)
by nifer
Tom dear, I would never think to throw a rock at you. Not only do I trust your always informative and valuable reviews, I ENJOY reading them. I know I don't comment on every one I read, but when I do read I rate, and every time you see me rating a review of yours I hope you know that I read it with enjoyment.
Besides, I would never forgive myself if a rock left my hand and broke one of those marvelous bottles of wine that are always surrounding you. Alcohol abuse, indeed.
While you have opted for a cooler head in dealing with this matter, I have not and I am not ashamed, of my EBD review or those of my fellow participants. I AM surprised that more people are not outraged by the removal of the edit/delete function, but respect all the differences in people here, even those that seem illogical to me.
You and I, friend, may disagree, but friends we shall remain.
xoxo ~ jennifer
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Oct 28 '01
5:02 pm PST
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Tom... (Reply to this comment)
by shadow8
I have read several of the Epinions Blows Dog entries and to be truthful, I'm not sure what to make of them. Reading those EBD entries is a lot like, well, watching Scary Movie or an episode of "South Park". Are these entries tasteless and deflamatory? Unfortunately, yes. Did I enjoy reading them? Unfortunately, yes. I suppose you can call these entries "guilty pleasures".
With that said, I admire your stance. I admire the fact that you are able to stay calm and try to act as a voice of reason amid a cloud of chaos.
BUT, it doesn't mean that I condone Epinions' actions. I think that what they have done is total bull s h i t. I don't care what the fine print on their TOS says. They don't (no matter what) own our words.
Interesting to read your five stages of grief. I was definitely on Stage 1 almost all day when I read the news about Epinions' recent changes. But gradually, I begun to realize that that is the reality of things. I don't accept them, but to me, it shouldn't matter. I have too much in my life to worry about; I shouldn't let Epinions affect my life.
Thanks for the article. And thanks for not letting your emotions cloud your judgment. I'm terribly sorry for the rant; but I just needed to get this off my chest.
-shadow8
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Oct 28 '01
3:30 pm PST
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The voice of reason is needed (Reply to this comment)
by jgibson2
But sometimes it is necessary to foment revolution as well.
Judy
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Oct 28 '01
1:13 pm PST
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Mine WILL Be Deleted... (Reply to this comment)
by Nikjdog
Just as soon as Epinions allows me to. The review I used was the beginning of a legitimate review I was preparing to submit in a few days. AS soon as I can delete the one I have posted I intend on substituting the real one.
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Oct 28 '01
12:48 pm PST
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Thanks for not jumping on the bandwagon! (Reply to this comment)
by paulyoungotti
There is definitely a bandwagon going around, and i am glad to say you haven't jumped on it. As an aspiring writer, who hopes to make a living later on in life by writing, i was quite shocked by the fact that the edit/delete function had been deleted.I am not bothered by the money really, because either way you can't make much money! I do agree with you on most points, apart from the eradication of the edit/delete function - which i think is a crime, i really do! Stiil good work, and thanks for a differnt perspective on the events of the last couple of weeks.
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Oct 28 '01
10:23 am PST
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Exactly (Reply to this comment)
by flamepillar
I know exactly what you're saying. I mean, might as well leave the reviews here. It's not like Random House is gonna barrage anybody's door to buy their toaster reviews. What else is anybody gonna do with that anyway? It's not like there is a limit when it comes to writing. The only thing that Random House would be interested in around here anyway are the editorials, the ones that go into all kinds of detail about a person's life and have nothing to do with making buying decisions. Strange that those are the very ones you're always hearing that this site would be "better off without".
If it's really that big of a case of right and wrong, lemme tell you what's wrong. Afghan women have to wear complete shrouds of clothing when it's 100 degrees outside and if they even show their ankles they are beaten. Now THAT's wrong. But nobody save those directly affected would ever give a rat's a*ss about that.
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Oct 28 '01
9:33 am PST
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rocks? not a chance... (Reply to this comment)
by jkkelley
...because I respect your viewpoint, agree or disagree, for the same reasons you're on my Trust list (and there you shall remain). Each of us must react to this in his or her own way.
As one of the counterculturalists you mentioned (or so I hope), I myself cannot stand aside while Epinions does as they have done. But I'll never proselytize, or bust anyone's chops for not joining Team EBD. The whole principle here is control over what one writes--in effect, a free speech issue. Those who demand their own freedom of speech must respect that of others.
Do as you've got to do, and I shall do the same, and across that divide I trust that mutual respect continues to remain.
jk
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Oct 28 '01
9:06 am PST
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Re: Thanks for the "Cooler head" approach (Reply to this comment)
by andaryl
Thanks for writing this Tom, I emailed you about it as I didn't feel capable of writing my own version. I have been NH-ing those EBD reviews although not all as some were on-topic. If those peopel want to revenge rate me can the do it before the 1st so I get the penny.
I repeat the point I made in my article, epinions owes you nothing. Don't vandalise the site becaus eyou don't like what they did. If you writee an off-topic review and everyone decides to MH it, remember you're also harming anyone else who wrote a review in that category. If you don't like what epinions did, stop writing here.
Well written and diplomatic as ever Tom
Cheers
Andrew
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Oct 28 '01
8:42 am PST
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Thanks for the "Cooler head" approach (Reply to this comment)
by michiman1
I have mixed emotions about all the changes also. Maybe I just didn't take Epinions as seriously as some. I did, however, just finish redeeming what could possibly be - if I'm lucky - my last check. I'll be hanging around for awhile and see how it goes. Thanks
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Oct 28 '01
8:04 am PST
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Re: Well said, Tom. (Reply to this comment)
by vonboob
Agreed! Nevertheless I can't help being involved. I might not go as far as EBD but I spent the time and it took some effort (no matter the results) which might as well go somewhere it would be appreciated... I can't imagine how it feels for someone who's involvement is hundreds times greater.
I just started this adventure: you are the ones who are to make decision. I have about 20 people on my reading list. This is most important and as long as the people on the list are writing... I might post something too.
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Oct 28 '01
7:48 am PST
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Re: My little comment.. (Reply to this comment)
by djazz773
What is more inappropriate is epinions stealing our work.
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Oct 28 '01
6:57 am PST
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Thanks (Reply to this comment)
by gerper
Tom: As one who participated in the EBD w/o, I contributed just to show how upset I was at the fact that we cannot delete our reviews and that our revenue was being taken away without ANY input from the Epinions community. True, Epinions can do whatever it wants, but it was OUR contributions that made this site great.
While some of the EBD essays were very nasty, many were extremely well written and funny. I myself posted an essay without constant swear words, and tried to put the whole thing into perspective, as did many writers.
I love this site, I love the members here and I completely enjoy reading, writing and interacting with others. I don't do it for the money, I do it to meet others and learn from them. I try to give 100% in my reviews, and many times, I update them if I see a gramatical error or if the information has changed. I do this so that other members of the community can be better informed. Without that ability, it basically makes my contributions to this site not up to the 100% level that I want to give.
I will continue to write, read, and rate, and am hopeful Epinions will continue on. I do think that there is a lot of anger right now, but I expect it to blow over within a week. I am hopeful that other Epinions members continue to come here and contribute in any way they wish to, as long as it is a positive one.
STILL HOLDING ONTO HOPE THAT THIS SITE WILL BE HEALTHY!!
gerper
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Oct 28 '01
12:13 am PDT
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Tom I so agree... (Reply to this comment)
by BlackCat2
I am shocked too by some of the things I have seen. I pretty much went through all the stages but kept my anger under control until I hit stage five.
Thanks for writing this and making me realize I am not alone in being too calm about this...
~,,,^..^,,,~ BlackCat2
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Oct 27 '01
11:21 pm PDT
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You could be right (Reply to this comment)
by Lark729_89
about the delete button.
I tried to give you a MH for this review but I already gave that to BlackCat and Epinions will not let me give two. That sounds reasonable...only one Helpful allowed.
Anyhow, this review is most helpful and I enjoyed reading it. I also realize what a great writer you are.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Carol
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Oct 27 '01
8:56 pm PDT
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Agree and Disagree (Reply to this comment)
by WorkingMomof2
Tom, this was intelligent and well written. I agree with much of what you said, and yet I disagree as well. It's a horrible turn of events, and I think there are some who were ripe for a fight - and yet there are others who have a genuine message.
Unfortunately, this decision is a horrible one for many BUSINESS reasons, which affect both the writers and the end consumers. Remember if the content is worthless (out of date or inaccurate) the value to the consumer is far less, so the payout (which is now 100% IS) will fluctuate accordingly.
It's a true problem. I will admit that I was not going to participate, because 1) I don't want a review filled with profanity on my profile, assuming that I can never delete it, 2) I am not leaving the site, so this is not a last hurrah from me, and 3) I hate to write anything off-topic on purpose.
So I edited a draft - which I have honestly been working on - and entered into the fray. Without profanity, and trying my best to control any ranting or hurtful comments. My hope was that I could calmly convey the BUSINESS disaster that this decision caused for both the site overall, and for the writers. I also honestly hope that people will not go and revenge rate those who disagree -- it's just another sad turn of events. Same as those who claim to be rating randomly just to punish the site - how can they ever "fix" that if the problem is corrected?
For me, I will go on the record saying I think this decision was a colossal mistake - but because of the business implications for Epinions, not because I personally have secret reviews I want to delete as the whim strikes me.
Sigh. It's a sad, sad state of affairs, isn't it?
All my best - and with respect -
Amy
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Oct 27 '01
8:49 pm PDT
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Well Said Tom! (Reply to this comment)
by OpalMan
Thank you for being the voice of reason in this bizarre turn of events. You have always had and will continue to have my utmost respect. I was appalled when I read the first EBD write-off entry and I have read a number of them. As angry as I am at the changes, I can not support they are going about this. I can completely understand why Epinions did what they did as I saw a number of people do exactly as they said right after the Advisor transition.
James
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Oct 27 '01
8:14 pm PDT
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Well said, Tom. (Reply to this comment)
by rich2003dm
I feel exactly the same way. I haven't given Epinions any work that publishers are clamoring for. I write because I enjoy it, and I post it on Epinions because they give me a place to stick it where people can see it.
I'm not a writer wannabe. I just want to have some fun writing.
No grand illusions...no aspirations.
As far as I'm concerned, Epinions can keep my stuff forever, even if they fold. They're not getting all that much.
Rich
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Oct 27 '01
5:37 pm PDT
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