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Opinion Summary
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Confessions of an Abortion Agnostic
by Caprig | May 30 '01
Pros: legal choice, feeling of control, career enhancement, quiet home
Cons: haunting memories, can't reverse it,constant rationalization is exhausting, post-traumatic-stress-disorder, possible-infertility
Return to opinion
OVERALL RATING
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Date Written |
Mental illness (Reply to this comment)
by dwightschrute
Mental illness is a serious problem, and there are many outlets where you can seek help. Please seek help immediately. Your tirade about abortion is certifiable. Your pre-K child was screaming these things? How might these thoughts even be in his head? Could it be that you and your Yanni lookin' hubby have drilled it into his head at such a tender age? That is SICK. Oh, and do you also have a problem with Jewish people? It sure sounds like it. Take your bible thumping anti-Semite dung elsewhere. While we're at it, you can also take your atrocious FOTD's with you. We at MUA are sick and tired of it. You are an embarrassment to yourself, and are the laughing stock of the mu board. Have you any idea how many people think you're a joke? While we're on that topic, could you please clean off your junked out porch too? It's hard to pay attention to your blindly applied "makeup" when there are piles of junk around you as you pose on your porch. I would guess that even the scarecrows in the fields are laughing at you too! Please colorqueen/caprig ~ put a sock in it. You are a lunatic.
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Dec 08 '07
10:41 pm PST
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Amen (Reply to this comment)
by koala2u88
Thank you, Capri, and amen. Worked in a counseling center. Boy, did I see some young girls without a clue. Abortion-just another form of birth control. The youngest was twelve, brought in by her "loving" father. She had bad dreams, attacks of vomiting,and other problems--all stemming from an abortion that the loving father insisted upon. She was trying to self destruct. Where was her loving dad when it came to rule setting, monitoring his daughter and setting standards of conduct? Busy with his own life and work. Likewise mom. So sad. Is this what is meant by "Pro-Choice"? If you are cruel to animals you can go to jail. If you are cruel to an unborn baby you can go wherever you choose. So, amen to you Capri, keep making sense when others won't.
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May 02 '06
3:44 pm PDT
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Brave Woman (Reply to this comment)
by dj_jazzy_jrod
I liked your editorial. I agreed with most of it. I feel as if other readers, are interpeting your work too word for word. The same problem the bible has had- ever!!
For those who are reading too much into it, I am not sayin capri's editorial is on the same level as the bible, I only used it as an example everyone would know. It is a real shame I had to explain that, otherwise I would be dealing with just as many intolorent replies.
I am not Christian, although I was raised that way. I have chosen a belief system more or less based on a little of this and a little of that. I do not hinder people with my beliefs, yet I do not let people force theirs above my own.
I am sorry if you feel an Anti-Christian biggotry. I would think with all that has happened since 9/11 that wouldn't be, but I am not in your shoes. I understand though, as I am constantly approached by people trying to convince me that if I don't accept a their god, my soul and happiness in danger. At one time, I used to call them "Bible thumping, cattle being led instead of leading!!" Then one day I realized I was only venting anger at being made to feel inferior. Anger is not healthy, plenty of studies have proven that. I feel though you do look to try and understand other people, you still have a lot of un-resolved anger. Bad things happen every day. If we can improve them that is great, and we should try. Still, we shouldn't spend a dollar to save a dime. Capri, and everyone reading her editorial, take a moment to wonder not only why eachother is mad, by why you are mad as well. It really reveals a lot. Otherwise, great editorial. Many will argue, many won't have an opinion. As for me? I believe abortion to be wrong. I have my reasons, and that is not anyone's business but my own. I feel the topic is still too hot, and a solution may never be found, but it is great that there are people with enough drive to defend their reasons. For that big applause. Here's hoping for a world where our biggest concerns are how to find more knowledge so that we always know more than we did the day before. Take care everyone!!!
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Dec 19 '02
6:25 pm PST
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I think you are very brave (Reply to this comment)
by juliesknutson
I cannot begin to weigh in on this topic. I simply have never been faced with such a decision and for me, it probably would not have ever been an issue. Babies are babies and I love them all. I can say I appreciate your frank honesty and it takes a lot of faith in yourself to put a story like that out for the public. Simply because you presented both sides, I rated it as helpful. When someone is facing a decision of that magnitude- honesty is the only thing that can help.
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Jul 20 '02
9:31 am PDT
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Ahem; (Reply to this comment)
by elsa70
I can't honestly say I agree with your opinion all the way. But that's why it's called an opinion anyway - it shouldn't be viewed as a statement.
Whew. That read did jolt me, and kudos (and a well-deserved VH) for having the guts to express your thoughts and doing it appropriately.
Daniela
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May 24 '02
5:44 am PDT
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Ahem; (Reply to this comment)
by elsa70
I can't honestly say I agree with your opinion all the way. But that's why it's called an opinion anyway - it shoudln't be viewed as a statement.
Whew. That read did jolt me, and kudos (and a well-deserved VH) for having the guts to express your thoughts and doing it appropriately.
Daniela
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May 24 '02
5:42 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: ATTENTION! (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
Margaret, no matter what I say to you and how I say it, I suspect I will get the same coined reaction from you.
Of course, my review is just an opinion. That is why the site is called EPINIONS.
If you truly want the documentation on what I stated about the NYstate situation, I suggest you do an internet search. It is current news, and I saw this on a news program. It is not a fantasy that I made up or an opinion- that is fact. The story is sure to develop and should be easy to track.
So, if you truly are interested in pursuing the truth, it is out there, and all you need to do is to look. Because of the bias of the media, you will not find it as readily as you might other topics more in the financial interest of their agenda, but it is there.
I am truly sorry that you feel it so necessary to strike out like a cobra in the corner. I am also sorry that you have closed your mind so tightly against truth and information that you put the burden of research on others.
But that is your choice.
I appreciate you taking the time to leave comments and to interact with me from time to time when I can participate in this comment section.
May you develop a hunger for truth and information that will drive you to research and look for it. It took a lot for me to get uncomfortable with the propaganda I had been fed as a student, and perhaps it will take a lot for you too.
Perhaps you never will develop this hunger.
Regardless of your mindset, I still enjoy you and am thankful you took the time to interact with me.
I wish you the best as always,
Capri
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Mar 27 '02
7:51 am PST
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Re: Re: Re: ATTENTION! (Reply to this comment)
by Penguinlady
Yet more (of the same) unsupported statements.
Still none of your promised documentation.
Without data, it's just an opinion.
Margaret
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Mar 23 '02
11:23 am PST
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Re: Re: ATTENTION! (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
Margaret, honey, you say that you are willing to listen to thoughtful information and comments on abortion. From the hateful antagonistic tone of your comments, however, the very opposite comes through.
How many pro-life centers have you visited? How many people have you known who have given their lives and means to help others at great personal cost? How many times have you personally witnessed the activities at abortion clinics and seen equal access and representation of complete information from prolife and proabortion people?
I ask this rhetoricallly as you really do not seem to exhibit rational tendencies to want to think or discuss any part of this topic with an open mind.
The fact remains- people who give their means toward helping women be informed about abortion alternatives do so at great personal cost with no financial backing from government or many others either. You may say or believe whatever you want, but that is the truth.
Abortionists get paid richly for their services, both by the income they make from the women, and from the huge governement and private sources who are bound to defend their huge source of profits.
This is not hard-to-find information. This is not anything that you will not be able to look into yourself.
As for having personal problems- having families and well rounded lives that are not obsessed with warlike extremism means responsibilites. It means having difficulties and struggles.
Perhaps those who try to avoid such challenges in life find it easier to kill their children and supposedly lessen such difficulties.
I did not opt for that route, despite my buying into the propaganda as I once did.
Like it or not, I have challenges in my life. I am not afraid to meet them. I have put my husband, health and children on top priority.
What you responded to here was just a review I did on the service called abortion. I simply shared my views and experiences with anyone interested in reading them. I did not do this to enter a boxing ring and have fun with ideological wars.
I can not do anything to change your mind. It seems to already be made up. I really do not want to try. You are responsible for your own views, thoughts and biases, Margaret. If you are content to be so hateful and antagonistic toward those who have decided to give of their lives to help others have an alternative to abortion, then so be it.
I can not change your mind. If you see nothing wrong with excluding pro-life people from complete and equal access to women who are pregnant, then you are not pro-choice. You are pro-abortion.
I do appreciate you taking the time to comment, however. You do not have to agree with me. You are still a valuable person, and I enjoy talking with you, no matter how bombastic or angry you come across.
You are a special person who deserves the right to hold an opinion no matter if it agrees with me or not.
I, for one, am glad that you were not aborted. I would not have had the opportunity to have any conversations with you. I would have missed the chance to learn about you and your experiences and mindset.
No matter what, I am glad you took the time to write. I enjoy you and am so glad you kept contact through this comment section.
Thank you, Margaret.
Talk to you again if you want, and if not, I am still glad you took the time-I value the experience.
I wish you the best,
Capri
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Mar 21 '02
8:28 am PST
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Re: ATTENTION! (Reply to this comment)
by Penguinlady
I must say, I'm impressed. Rarely have I seen such an incendiary statement, full of inflammatory adjectives and bias, unsupported by even the merest glimmer of a source citation, that ends with "I realize this is not personal..." !!!
Not one single statement you've made here is supported by even the merest shred of evidence. You have painted two large groups of people with wholesale colors: ALL the anti-choicers are humble, gentle, poverty-stricken philanthropists (forget the clinic-bombers and doctor-murderers), while ALL the pro-choicers are rich, evil, manipulative destroyers.
You began your diatribe with:
I did come across some very CURRENT information I wanted to add to this comment section in hopes that some of you will see it.
But you then proceed to restate your case in the most extreme terms, never once giving a citation where an interested reader can look up the facts for him- or herself.
I came back here, as I do periodically, because I've noticed, since I left my own original comment several months ago, that no matter what comment is left, you have an excuse for not providing any documentation for your statements. When I first wrote, you had broken your arm. At other times, you were busy with family illness, your comments disappeared when you tried to post them, or you'd organized your files so well you couldn't find anything, or... or... or... one excuse after another. In each case, you apologize prettily and promise future justification for your statements, but it's never forthcoming.
I, and others of my ilk, are willing to listen to reasonable, thoughtful statements and arguments from both sides of this dispute. But you have not provided that. You keep pouring more adjectives into your undocumented statements and promising future verification, but it never comes. I've been checking back in periodically to see if you have EVER given any of the promised supporting citations or verifiable facts to any of the people who have taken the time to comment here, myself included. And guess what - you haven't. You just keep adding more unsubstantiated babble and excuses. And this time you outdid yourself.
Your credibility on this subject is in shambles. I was really interested in engaging in a rational, reasonable conversation, but that doesn't seem to be possible. I'm sorry.
Margaret Penguinlady
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Mar 20 '02
9:02 pm PST
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ATTENTION! (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
Hi All,
I am sorry I have not been able to respond to each and every comment that I have wanted to on this review. From disappearing comments I wrote, to just not having the opportunity to write, it has been frustrating, as I wanted to answer.
However, I did come across some very CURRENT information I wanted to add to this comment section in hopes that some of you will see it.
In reference to the enormous money manipulation and movement to destroy the people who volunteer their time to help pregnant women understand alternatives to abortion- here is a very disturbing situation happening in the state of NY.
Some of you have asserted that there is no slanted effort to destroy the prolife movement. Well, it seems that Attorney General of NYS, Eliot Spitzer has come into his due payment.
When Mr. Spitzer bulldozed his way into the office of Attorney General, it was with the enormous money coffers of the Abortion industry. In exchange for this support, he is in the act right now of overstepping his bounds as Attorney General to close down and bring all pro life organizations under his personal control.
Don't believe me? In Victor, NY, a small town between Syracuse and Buffalo, he bullied a tiny clinic called BIRTHRIGHT into giving him total control of the clinic to approve or disapprove of ANYTHING that the clinic says or does.
No laws were broken, no rules were bent, this clinic was operating completely in their rights. Yet, Spitzer, going by the book of the NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action League) has joined sides with this money grabbing giant to put down their "competition".
Now he has demanded presence of 10 clinics in NYC to destroy them as well. He is planning to use the tactics employed on the tiny BIRTHRIGHT place to destroy all alternatives to abortion and give them complete oppression and not allow them to operate.
Very little regulation exists on abortion clinics, and like I said, it has not changed much. There are still many deaths happening from a report I just heard, on sloppy and lazy abortions, yet nothing is done about that.
Why in the world does the media blare headlines about so-called pro life extremists (who almost always are paid on the employ of the abortion industry to engender sympathy for their side, or they are deranged anarchists jumping on the chaos bandwagon), when almost all pro life people are indeed kind hearted people WHO MAKE NO MONEY ON THEIR TIME OR EFFORTS TO HELP OTHERS?
Why is there such an effort to destroy doctors, counselors, volunteers, nurses, and others who DONATE MONEY, TIME, DIAPERS, CLOTHING, EQUIPMENT, MEDICAL SERVICES, SONOGRAMS, SHELTER- ETC from their OWN POCKETS to help those who come to them? They make no money on this. NO MONEY.
Why, may I ask you, are the abortion people who seek to destroy these peaceful people who seek to inform women of their rights and introduce them to who they are truly carrying within their bodies (not what they carry), if they are simply for women's rights?
I have known many people who have given time and great bounty from their own pockets to help women have an informed choice. They have done nothing wrong. They have hurt no one. They have never forced anyone to not have an abortion.
Yet, these people were threatened, have also had force exerted against them - for no reason.
Such a totalitarian organization as the abortion industry that seeks to annihilate those seeking to help women be totally informed, which is what they say , but do not truly believe, has to be questioned.
Such a nasty and underhanded conglomerate that lusts after money at all costs, including those of human lives, needs to be looked at for what it is. Especially when they seek to destroy people who make no money from their efforts to help women.
Why is it that there are less regulations and enforcements on abortion clinics than there are on prolife clinics? Why do these tight fisted people who have tons of money to hire any kind of dishonest lawyers seek the demise of people who have so little resources that they can not even afford counsel?
Why don't the prolife people have any money? Marketing, Advertising, and the media slant to honor their top contributing interests. The abortion industry gets a load of government money IN ADDITION TO THEIR ENORMOUS INCOME MADE FROM THEIR INDUSTRY. Prolife people get none.
If this does not bother you, then perhaps we will all be destined to repeat the happenings of the second world war. When Germans were content with the same exact attitudes and loss of personal freedoms.
The same insidiousness that led to the slaughter of millions of innocent people, because they were considered not valid either. No more than babies who were unwanted. Jews, gypsies, Christians who tried to save the lives- all were slaughtered without question or reason as each voice raised in alarm was silence.
....and the church members just sang louder to drown out the screams of the innocent being taken to their slaughter, because they were not convenient......
I realize this is not personal, but I wanted to get this out while I had the chance- before life's demands prevented me again.
Best wishes to all- thanks for taking the time to comment!
Capri
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Mar 19 '02
12:57 pm PST
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Re: Hi Capri (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
ARGH!
Hi kim,
I just wrote you a really good-sized comment in reply to your wonderful comments, and it disappeared!
I am so frustrated.
I tried to re-write it but it just was not flowing. So I will attempt it again when I can. I am too frustrated right now.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a great comment, and I hope to answer you soon. I appreciate you!
Sigh....
Capri
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Mar 11 '02
8:39 am PST
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Re: Rating agnostic (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
You wrote
I don't know how to rate this epinion. First of all, I am a Christian. In reading your editorial, I'm told that anyone who is pro-choice is an anti-Christian bigot. You state that the "liberal" media is anti-Christian and pro-abortion. I am pro-choice but it is not because of the media.
You say abortion clinics use dirty equipment and kill many women. Where do you get your statistics? Do you have any idea how many women were maimed or killed by illegal abortions?
Back to the "liberal" media. I have never heard Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Walter Cronkite or any other major media person say he or she were pro-choice. Oh, they do cover the bombings and murders of doctors, nurses, and innocent citizens at abortion clinics.
On the other hand, unless you are still "media free", you cannot have missed the ultra-conservative ravings of Rush Limbaugh or O'Rourke.
Let me point out that I believe in the right of anyone to state their opinions. But to label those of us who are pro-choice as anti-Christian bigots is itself bigotry.
You claim to be an "agnostic" when in reality your position is clearly anti-choice.
Hello,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to this editorial. As for not knowing how to rate this review, that is not a problem. Just do not rate it at all if you prefer.
I think that you misunderstood many of the things that you have written in your comments. First of all, you claim that anyone who is pro-death is an anti-christian bigot.
No, actually the society we live in is slanted by many who are anti-christian bigots. The very mention of certain names with disgust is a sure indication of that taint. You illustrated that attitude well in your closing paragraph.
As for not being shaped by the media in our society, guess again. Your comments were clearly flavored with years of partial, slanted, and incomplete information. You do not seem to see it, but as a person who used to come from a similar viewpoint as you, I used to protest as you do.
As for the liberal media, there are many indications, quotes, and activities of the people you mentioned that clearly indicate their bias. The simple use of negative terms to describe anything that honors life, wholesomeness, and morality is one small thing. Anything that illustrates the opposite side of that is labeled with positive and glowing terms.
A simple example. Anti abortion, choice, or woman are a few labels placed on those who prefer not to murder their unborn children and who prefer to find homes for those who are not wanted by mothers who should have said no in the bedroom.
Pro-choice, woman, and abortion are words used to describe the lucrative position of supporting the multi billion dollar industry of murdering unborn children. If that industry were slaughtering unborn animals to that degree, there would be a huge outcry.
Perhaps those in the media are not motivated by personal spiritual beliefs, but the money in the abortion industry is loaded with motivation to support its existence.
As for the dirty clinics, not all of them are dirty. There are seriously disgusting clinics, and there are clinics that are spotless but still tainted with the innocent blood shed there. I no longer have the time to keep up with this information, but it is available to anyone now with internet if that person is willing to look. The days when I had copious amounts of information on this were not slathered with computers and internet users.
I used to collect information about the court cases of law suits of women killed or permanently maimed by abortions poorly done. The numbers were staggering. The very omission of this reporting from the media shows that they are very biased and not impartial news reporters. Only a couple of these cases made it to the press, and then they were downplayed.
Again, the information is out there if you are willing to exhert the effort with an open mind and look for it. But, many are content to be lazy and settle into a non-committed stance claiming to have an informed or correct position when they have never open mindedly explored any of the available information.
As for debating labels you want to apply to me of who and what I am- I am not going to discuss this with you. The bottom line is that if you claim to be a Christian and maintain the right to torture mercilessly an unborn child in order to extinguish his/her life, then you have a conflict of interest.
I seem to recall the God that you say you follow saying that it would be better that a huge weight, hundreds of pounds heavy be tied around your neck and you thrown into the bottom of the sea than to bring harm to any little ones and prevent them from being raised to know him.
To ignore the actual process of murder and torture performed in the sake of convenience is to turn your back on the defenseless and innocent. I am sure that the Christians who sang louder to drown out the screams of the Jews being shipped away to their death and torture defended their positions as well. I am sure they rationalized it all out too.
I know, I was a lot like you once. This editorial was a journey through my experiences and what came of it. I leave the decision up to each person. An uninformed choice, is not a fair one however.
Thanks for taking the time to leave comments.
Capri
PS I had to rewrite this comment because the italics were done incorrectly, making it hard to read. Sorry about that.
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Feb 25 '02
9:58 am PST
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Re: Yikes! (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
A person that calls themselves agnostic usually is too weakwilled and lazy to do any kind of research and make any kind of decision to believe or not believe in something.
Can't rate this opinion - couldn't even read it. You lost me with the above statement. Talk about judgemental. There is no black and white in life, there are however ethical dilemnas. Belief systems are just that - belief systems. You can research religion or spritituality all you want, it doesn't prove anything.
I thought you sounded interesting in your bio - I did not expect intolerance from you.
You made a quote from my editorial. However, you did not read it correctly. Your response claims that I made an intolerant comment.
However, you ignored the word USUALLY. USUALLY is not all inclusive. It is not a blanket statement.
As for your assertion that there is no black or white, just ethical dilemmas, let me ask you this- would you push your mother or best friend in front of an oncoming bus? Is that right or wrong, or just a personal evaluation based upon personal beliefs.
If you jump off a cliff as you are with no equipment, is the result something to be debated, or are you going to fall?
Your assertion that there is no black or white is a blanket statement. There is black and there is white. There are also gray areas.
However, since you really did not read my entire editorial, you really missed the point of what I was trying to talk about in my own life.
And many people who claim to be agnostic are too lazy or should I say passive to make a stand or draw a conclusion based upon facts. It is much easier to flow down the current of not being commited and do nothing....until you discover that the river ends in a waterfall smashing upon the rocks.
As for not being able to rate this opinion, that is your choice. It does not bother me one way or another.
I appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, but your assertion of my intolerance is rather unfounded since you did not read the review.
Have a great day,
Capri
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Feb 24 '02
10:12 am PST
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Yikes! (Reply to this comment)
by movielover123
A person that calls themselves agnostic usually is too weakwilled and lazy to do any kind of research and make any kind of decision to believe or not believe in something.
Can't rate this opinion - couldn't even read it. You lost me with the above statement. Talk about judgemental. There is no black and white in life, there are however ethical dilemnas. Belief systems are just that - belief systems. You can research religion or spritituality all you want, it doesn't prove anything.
I thought you sounded interesting in your bio - I did not expect intolerance from you.
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Feb 23 '02
7:41 am PST
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Rating agnostic (Reply to this comment)
by mike.holmes
I don't know how to rate this epinion. First of all, I am a Christian. In reading your editorial, I'm told that anyone who is pro-choice is an anti-Christian bigot. You state that the "liberal" media is anti-Christian and pro-abortion. I am pro-choice but it is not because of the media.
You say abortion clinics use dirty equipment and kill many women. Where do you get your statistics? Do you have any idea how many women were maimed or killed by illegal abortions?
Back to the "liberal" media. I have never heard Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Walter Cronkite or any other major media person say he or she were pro-choice. Oh, they do cover the bombings and murders of doctors, nurses, and innocent citizens at abortion clinics.
On the other hand, unless you are still "media free", you cannot have missed the ultra-conservative ravings of Rush Limbaugh or O'Rourke.
Let me point out that I believe in the right of anyone to state their opinions. But to label those of us who are pro-choice as anti-Christian bigots is itself bigotry.
You claim to be an "agnostic" when in reality your position is clearly anti-choice.
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Feb 17 '02
12:03 am PST
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The Only Thing... (Reply to this comment)
by perfectprep
The only thing that keeps me going through day and night
Is when people *like you* wake up one day and see the light,
And I am convinced, somewhere, somehow, that all is good and right.
And I know there is a fire to fight, a fire to fight, a blazing fire to fight,
But when mothers and sons put out the fire, all will lie in peace.
Thank you so much. I keep on believing.
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Feb 04 '02
6:21 pm PST
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Re: Re: ... (Reply to this comment)
by JLSW
Caprig,
I am delighted to see this review "opened" again. I hope that you find your research notes as I will be looking in from time to time to see if you were able to locate them and comment on the questions that have been raised of late.
I am impressed with the respect that everyone is giving to each other in spite of differing opinions. Questions are good. Challenges can be good as well when sincere and not from "hate".
I also believe that knowing what leads one to making a decision is always helpful to bring understanding to why they did what they did, to bring understanding of the needs of the individual and to finding a way to serve and support that person.
I am sure everyone who ever murdered anyone would have an incredible (and to be sincerely listened to) tale of "why" they took a life... their own personal mistreatment, abuse, unmet needs, huge injustices done to them resulting in immense hate...
But having reasons, even really good ones, never makes murder excusable or right, it just makes it understandable. Options or choices for dealing with mistreatment, abuse, injustices were never presented in "loud" enough, real enough, useful enough terms. The training for avoiding or eliminating abuse also lacks.
How sad when someone is so hopeless that murder is their choice to deal with their situation. This should make us cry for the victim AND the offender. Sincerely cry. But the offender should not be treated as if their crime was not a CRIME. It is wrong to murder. There are consequence to this crime.
I know that the "reasons" for abortion are not "hate" and not necessarily personally experience of abuse. But something has happened to convince the person getting an abortion that this being within their womb is either not a "real person" (just part of "my body" like a mole or something -never mind that is has its own unique blood type etc), or that it will be better off if not brought into the world, or that they themselves will be better off if this being is not permitted to come into the world. They have reasons to believe these arguments.
Yet, it is often very inconvenient to have a baby, a toddler, a pre-teen, or a teen. The expense! The time consumed! The interference with career! With education! Not having enough help to raise the child! There must be many (many MANY) reasons that we could list that these children complicate our lives, even make our lives filled with heart ache, and tax our health ,our wallet, our patience, but would we ever kill them? What difference should the side of the womb make?
My heart aches for every woman who is in the position of making a choice about the life of their baby. How hard it must be.. how loud the voices must be that say "it will never work to keep it", "your life will be ruined if you keep it"... "It is your choice"… It is best for you, for them…" These are hard hard things to hear.
Without hope, without support, without absolute assurance of the value of the life of a fetus there is no option but to choose death for the baby. Calling it "abortion" is a way to hide that it is death to a living being- (not just death, but murder).
I don't care if the clinics are dirty or as clean as a whistle. I don't really even care what other religions teach about child sacrifice or violence. Answers to these concerns (valid studies in themselves) do not change whether abortion is right or not.
I just know in my heart that life is to be celebrated and allowed to have its chance. I know this not only in my heart but through the teachings that God has given us in the Bible.
I believe that God will provide a way for support, for needs to be met, for life to flourish as we trust Him, when we choose life.
Well, I am obviously opinionated. But I hope that more than being opinionated, that I am loving and compassionate and able to support and offer workable alternatives and choices to the needy- whoever they might be.
May we all continue to judge less and support more and offer insights, guidance, and love. May we hold on to standards for truth, for moral integrity, for Right and Wrong, without being judgmental (let us judge the deed--- love the person, consequences to crimes are still to be expected.)
Blessings to all who live, wherever that may be…
JLSW
P.S.This is why I speak up for the unborn:
Prov 31:8-9 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
(NIV)
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Jan 11 '02
12:19 pm PST
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Re: ... (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
Whoops,forgot the oppression of women thing.
True Christians and Jews have not oppressed women, however, there are people who love to take things , twist them and use them for selfish gain. Those people over the centuries have perverted the tennets of Christianity and Judiasm and used them as weapons against many innocent people.
Religion (man's interpretations of God's laws)always seems to kill life in one way or another.
There are Muslims that do not murder Christians and Jews and others(although the Koran does say that it is a high honor to do so), but there are many many who do.
Not everyone can be lumped together in any category of generalization.
However, it is evident that only societies with a true enduring freedom to a significant dimension have roots in Christian/Judiac foundation. Take a look at the societies around the globe and historically.
Again, I speak not of the suppressive religious regimes that perverted forms of so-called Christianity that led to feudalism and the like.
It is so hard to discuss this kind of a topic in the limited tiny space of Epinions as much as I would love to.
Sorry I am not up to par today and can not be as concise or specific as I would like, but I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this in any manner.
I appreciate you.
Capri
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Jan 09 '02
11:08 am PST
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Re: Interesting article (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
You know, I am frustrated. For months I kept all of my paperwork handy with all of the information that you and Angela have requested. Names, dates, times etc.
As time has gone on (you realize that this editorial/review was not written recently, right?) these papers have been attacked by my toddler and put away in a safe place.
Yeah, right. A safe place that is so safe I can not find them either.
I will attempt to answer you a bit, but my answers at the moment will be pitifully inadequate compared to what I usually would desire to write.
Combine that with my wrist being so limited, and I am struggling here. If you sincerely want to continue this discussion via email over the future, I would love to, and when I find the information I want to find, I can pass the specifics over to you.
I will address what I can remember from the comments you wrote (my computer is having problems opening more than one window at once, I will have to see what is up with it, sigh....)
Sanitary conditions - I have heard several interviews with people who were in charge of inspecting medical facilities. They somehow ended up in abortion clinics - purely as a job, not as "pro-life advocates looking for dirt". Let me say that at the time I started collecting information about this, I was not pro-life or interested in defending anything. I was simply looking to shrug off these fanatics as I was not really convinced of anything yet.
Let me see, um, financial incentives, I think I remember, well, there is a list of quite a few people who were abortion clinic owners or doctors that I have heard speak, either in person or on video or radio interviews. There were many references to specific places that they were a part of and how hard it was for them to leave, until suddenly it occurred to them the horror of what they were doing.
One woman, I think her name is Carol Everitt (spelling , if her name is correct, is horrid, I am sure) owned a chain of clinics, and there was a doctor, from the Northwest, but I can not remember his name. There were also quite a few other former clinic owners or doctors that I have heard over the years, but I just can not remember their names.
Again, I will see what the heck I did with my notes and such when I can lift heavy things again.
Breast cancer? I think I remember that mentioned in your comments....The day I was writing my review, I happened to turn on the radio where a medical doctor (not pro-life Jo either) who was citing studies and journal entries about it. He was very specific in his data too, but I can not remember his name. I think I can get in touch with the radio station that had him on, if they can remember back that far, and perhaps get his name from there, since my notes have taken refuge in an unknown location.
As for your personal experience, I realize that everyone's experience is different. I also realize that murder is murder, no matter what the circumstances. Our society has demeaned the life of a human child as being sub-human so that people will more readily accept it, and line their pockets with cash.
The only time that people usually defend murder is in the circumstance of self defense, when attacked first in a matter of life or death. I know of no baby in the womb that has actively attacked the mother causing her death. I speak of the human himself/herself, not the body's reaction to the pregnancy.
I wish I could take more time to do this and type all that I would like.
However, despite the limitations, I am always open to discussion on this matter. If you want to be patient with me and continue this discussion with me via email, I would be glad to.
I really appreciate your comments, and I only regret that they came at a time like this and not sooner when I still had the information handy and was more able to reply as I would like.
However, I am glad that you took the time to communicate and that you are open to discussion at all.
Capri
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Jan 09 '02
10:55 am PST
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Re: ... (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
Hi Angela,
Unfortunately, my wrist condition makes it hard to write a lot sometimes. I have already used up my limit for today before I found the email alert about this comment.
I will do my best with what I have left here.
First of all, I can only respond to what I remember, and I will do my best, as I can not get an alternate window to open with your comments on it so I can read them as I write.
As for the term AGNOSTIC. There was never a problem in using certain terms to describe people, places, or belief stances until the last couple of decades. For a very long time, the term AGNOSTIC was used to say, " I am ignorant, and can not draw a conclusion". It was not to insinuate that you were an idiot, but only that you did not know.
I speak of you figuratively, not to you specifically.
Let me see, you spoke of dirty clinics, I wish I had the transcripts of the interviews and the copies of the papers that I used to have about this. I, like you, am always suspicious of people's motives when doing ALL testing or research. This particular situation was not one for a motive against abortion, but rather objective until they found overwhelming problems.
Let me see, I think you said something about pro-abortion and that no one is actually "pro", but I say that the men who flew into the twin towers were not pro-violence either in their eyes. In fact, they only murder when it furthers their cause.
So, does that mean that they still have the right to take innocent lives?
Okay, I think I remember you saying something about no other religions being against child sacrifice as an argument against Christians/Jews being the "only ones". Remember, the words I used were STAUNCHLY PROHIBIT.
As for the other religions you mentioned being peaceloving. I am sorry, but although there are peaceful people who practice in every one of them, there are a lot of instructions to do things that are in no way peaceful, as for you, it is hard to express myself with such limitations, but I will stop at saying that. Not closed to discussion, just limited in typing.
I think that the last thing you mentioned is writing to my friends, Frank and Ingrid. I do have Frank's address, and I can get Ingrid's although I do not have it at the moment, as she has moved.
Email me if you sincerely want to write them, OK?
I can not remember anything else, and my wrist is hurting. Better stop. As for you saying what you believe, that is great. Unfortunately, not everyone is as open minded as you are, and many people would just as soon get rid of Jews/Christians. It is only because of 9-11 that an attitude of openness has settled on the country- for a while.
Sorry I can not write more, but I do appreciate your comments. You took a lot of time to read and think about what you were going to say.
Again, email me if you really want to write my friends.
capri
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Jan 09 '02
10:35 am PST
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Re: Re: the NH (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
And.....so?
You guys crack me up.
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Jan 09 '02
10:17 am PST
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Re: Re: Hi, (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHA
That is really funny. You should be a comedian!
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Jan 09 '02
10:16 am PST
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Re: Hi, (Reply to this comment)
by down2earth
most women dont get that kind of niceness showered on them.So honey get your head out of the clouds and realize there are too many kids suffering out there because of people like you!!You people protest and make abortion clinics a dangerous place to visit!Let a women choose! Im sick of people like you!!If you think this review is too one sided too bad!!You people are one sided yourselves!!
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Jan 08 '02
11:44 pm PST
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Re: the NH (Reply to this comment)
by nifer
Just 'cause it's long, it don't mean it's helpful, at least not in my book. Wow.
jennifer
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Jan 08 '02
9:03 pm PST
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... (Reply to this comment)
by difrentisgood
I do not have a problem with any of the words or phrases you used, but I feel that I must comment on the arguement and logic behind them.
You said: Agnostic comes from Greek. It means without knowledge. A person that calls themselves agnostic usually is too weakwilled and lazy to do any kind of research and make any kind of decision to believe or not believe in something.
As both as a theological agnostic and "abortion agnostic," I am extremely offended by these statements; obviously, you do not understand agnosticism. Many agnostics, including myself, have gone and still go through an extremely difficult soul-searching process, studying many different religions and beliefs and deeply questioning their own. I see no shame in saying "maybe there is no answer" rather than jumping to a conclusion because it is the fashionable thing to do, whether that conclusion be liberal or conservative.
Re: abortion, I agree with the below comment that very few people are PRO-abortion -- it is certainly traumatic for the mother and perhaps morally wrong -- but in this current society it is necessary. As a teenager, I honestly don't know what I would do or where I would turn if I were faced with such a horrible decision, and I think you might find it very difficult to place blame on many who receive abortions if you knew the entire circumstances.
As for the dirty test clinics, I would doubt how reliable that data is until I knew the motive of those doing the tests.
You also said: After all, the Jewish and Christian belief systems are the only ones that staunchly prohibit child sacrifice.
As a Buddhist (Buddhism & agnosticism don't necessarily cancel each other out) I can assure you that I am very against child sacrifice, and I'm sure most Muslims, Taoists, Hindus, Atheists, Wiccans, & Humanists would agree with me on that issue. In fact, I can think of at least two instances in the Christian Bible, one in which a child was nearly sacrificed, and another in which besieged civilians resorted to eating their children. I wish I could give you specific names & books, but it's been a while since I read the thing.
And you said: Even the so-called peaceful religions such as those practiced by Hindus and Muslims hide heinous crimes that murder children and abuse women on a large scale.
And I suppose Christians have never tried to repress women? Or gone to war with other countries, quite possibly killing children in the process? Please apply to yourself the same standards you seem to hold everyone else accountable for.
You said, about "Frank" and "Ingrid," You can email them if you do not believe me.
May I, please? This story interests me very much. Do you have their e-mail addresses handy?
I'm not quite finished, though - I read a few of your comments, too:
You comment about "AntiChristians," saying you've been subjected to bigotry, and people discount your ideas without hearing them. I know this must be very frustrating, and I believe I am very familiar with what you are talking about. Perhaps if you ordered your thoughts more logically and provided a more reasonable basis for your explanations and beliefs, others might respect you more. It also might help if you gave everyone else more respect as regards their beliefs. Remember that they probably think they are just as right as you are, and nothing you say will cause them to change their mind anymore than anything I say might cause you to change your mind. That is all the advice I can give to you.
One more thing: You are right. Again, it is the antichristian bigotry at work. Eliminate the christian(& some Jewish) thought and you get rid of the problem, right? Make everything that christianity and some branches of Judaism believe anathema and you are spared being inconvenienced with other views.
I have no desire to rid the world of Christians and Jews. Most of the people close to me, including my family, are Christians and I would be extremely sad if they were "gotten rid of." I want them to believe what makes them feel happy and fulfilled, and I wish they felt the same about me.
I am pitifully bad trying to get across exactly what I want to say, and for this I apologize. I only wanted to clear some things up and be allowed to defend my beliefs. I would appreciate it if you respond to my questions and comments.
peace,
angela
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Jan 08 '02
8:23 pm PST
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Re: Re: Interesting article (Reply to this comment)
by Penguinlady
Dear Capri -
So sorry to hear that you're in a cast - what happened? I'll look forward to your response when you're recovered!
It's a heck of a way to bring in the new year, but I hope it's a happy one despite its inauspicious beginning...!
Margaret Penguinlady
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Jan 02 '02
3:51 pm PST
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Re: Interesting article (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
mY dear woman.
it is killing me not to answer yor great comments.
but- arm in a soft cast.
typing nearly impossible.
want to write really bad but not for a while.
I would love to answer your questions.]
thanks for tajing the time to write.
it will be a while before i can write though.
capri
WHEW. THAT WAS HARD......
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Dec 19 '01
11:51 am PST
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Interesting article (Reply to this comment)
by Penguinlady
I have a couple of comments to add to the mix.
1. You make a lot of blanket statements about the sanitary conditions of abortion clinics, but nowhere do you back them up. Where does this information come from?
2. Likewise the statements about the financial incentives. What is the source of your statements?
3. I would like to see some concrete examples of this "antiChristian bigotry" you kept mentioning.
4. Where does your information about the positive statistical relationship between abortion and breast cancer come from? I would like to read it for myself.
5. Having both relinquished a child for adoption and had an abortion, I can absolutely state that the former was, and remains to this day, 30+ years later, by FAR the more traumatic. I can tell you without exaggeration that the day hasn't passed since then that I haven't thought about my lost child, and my mood darkens considerably every year on her birthday and Mothers' Day. I belong to an Internet list of women who relinquished; the list exists because there is still trauma associated with that event. I regretted having to have the abortion (which, by the way, was performed at minimal cost by volunteer staff in a spotless clinic,) but while I can probably reconstruct the date, I can't tell you exactly what it was off the top of my head. Denial? Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't know of anyone who is PRO abortion - it's a necessary option for some people but I doubt that anyone enjoys it or looks forward to either the decision or the procedure. Unless and until you know ALL the circumstances that surround every decision to have an abortion, you aren't in a position to judge the women who exercise that option.
Your article was interesting and I'm glad I read it, but I didn't rate it because of the many unsubstantiated statements; I would have had to have given it an NH. As my researcher friend says, "Without data, it's just an opinion."
Penguinlady
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Dec 17 '01
1:02 pm PST
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Very touching (Reply to this comment)
by shantel575
article! I am glad I got to read it. And I'm glad things worked out for you the way they did.
God bless,
Shantel575
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Aug 23 '01
9:26 pm PDT
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