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Re: Popular science article? (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hi Helen,
Email me at,... the_gas_man@hotmail.com and I will tell you as much as I can about the links you requested. I may have some additional information for you as well.
This is not a North American only problem. It's something we need to prevent world-wide.
Regards,
Gasman
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Sep 07 '02
7:44 pm PDT
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Re: Well, I can't speak anywhere near... (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Dear Kate,
Thanks for your comments. Although I'm not up to speed myself on the current codes in the UK, I have a relative who lives near London and she told me her house came with an unvented room heater. Unfortunately, it was the worst type, in my epinion. They call them Calor Gas Heaters, she says, and they are attached to a large, refillable tank of butane, which sits in the room next to the heater. I can't think of anything more dangerous than a heating unit, with no vent to the outdoors, attached to a small bomb, in the living room.
Apparently, there are some codes which limit this practice, in theory, but there are a few loopholes through which people can find ways to play with fire. I've had similar comments from people in a number of European countries.
The good news today is, I finally received a written response from the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, asking me for more information. I finally have a few names of real people to discuss my concerns with and they appear to be taking some of my concerns seriously. Time will tell, if they actually plan to move on these issues. At least the ball is still in play and it's in their court.
In many ways, the UK generally has some pretty advanced fuel burning technologies and in other areas, they sometimes seem to be back in the dark ages. It almost always comes down to a person's basic common sense. Just because a "Calor Gas" heater is available, doesn't mean it's safe to use in your living room.
Thanks again for taking time to leave your comments. Take care.
Regards,
Gasman
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Jun 27 '02
12:03 am PDT
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Well, I can't speak anywhere near... (Reply to this comment)
by mattygroves
...as knowledgeably as you guys. However, I do know that gas space heaters and artificial wood fires are popular here in the UK. I have no idea, though, whether they are vented or unvented (although many are built into former wood burning fireplaces in the chimney breast).
We have central heating, so don't need a space heater, but there are still plenty of older houses that do not have central heating (about 13 years ago we looked at a house that was still COAL heated!! In a suburb of London!!)
You truly are King of the Hill, Gasman!!
I will save this article for future reference.
Cheers,
Kate
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Jun 26 '02
1:24 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Very Interesting (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Dear Capri,
So it seems I've failed to convert you,... yet.
Thanks for your comments anyway.
I hope you realize just how much thought I put into my long-winded response to your testimonial yesterday. I don't do that, as a general rule, unless I really feel the need to say something. Sometimes, writing too much about a particular topic, causes the reader to miss the main messages.
I don't think I misunderstood the main point of your comment, which was to say, you've owned a vent-free gas fireplace for four years, use it as the primary source of heat and think it's about the best damn thing since sliced bread.
Today, I am a little more comforted by a few of your most recent comments. Although you still haven't convinced me either.
The input rate is only a bit above what I think the maximum input rate should be set for nationally. I've suggested a cut-off point of 20,000 Btu's for an unvented gas heater. At a rated input of 22,000 yours is only about two pilot flames higher than that. Also, as the appliance heats up, the input rate will drop, due to the temperature build-up around the orifice. I've seen some drop as much as 20% within an hour of start-up. So you're probably running it at less than 20,000.
Your statement that you've had yours tested once, "and it was fine", sounds promising. I would be very interested in knowing what "fine" means to you or your contractor. Did they provide you with a copy of the combustion results? CO in parts per million and % of CO2 are usually the only things they test for, but, some of the new portable combustion analyzers also have NOX and SO2 sensors. I would be very interested in knowing the test results, if you have them.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but, it would also be interesting to know what type of analyzer your contractor used, whether it is calibrated on a regular basis and exactly how they tested it. Did they heat up the unit before testing it and for how long? Did they run a check on it at full and reduced input? This is pretty important, since you say you only usually operate it at the 50% turn down rate.
Also, it sounds as though you are consciously introducing fresh air into the home whenever you use the heater. That's a good habit to keep. It's just not something you would need to do with a direct vent fireplace/room heater. *S*
I'm surprised that a rated 22,000 Btu unit, at 50%
(I.E. 11,000 Btu's) would heat an entire house. Even a small one, in a colder region of the country. Unless you have about 20 kids, then I could see the body heat making up the difference.
As for my other concerns about safety, although you still don't see "nothing serious to be concerned about with this heater over conventional furnaces".... and I sincerely hope you never do, the dangers are still there and much greater than those associated with vented heaters and furnaces.
I have to inject my own take on your comment that any system can malfunction and become dangerous.
Your relatives for example, may have experienced a failed heat exchanger in their vented furnace. A crack or holes from corrosion, particularly when they occur close to the blower side of the furnace, can generate 1000's of parts per million of CO. In other words, levels of CO that could kill a person within hours or even minutes. However, a significant amount of those deadly fumes are vented up the chimney, usually. The fact that they are still here today, is probably due to the simple fact that they were only exposed to a small portion of the products of combustion from their malfunctioning furnace.
My view is, that most people wait until their heating systems "malfunction" before they are forced to replace them. In your case, for example, the burner could split open and the unit could begin to generate 1000's of ppm's of CO, directly into your home. You might notice a problem with the flame patterns, you might not. You might smell aldehydes, which have a sour smell and often accompany high volumes of CO, but then again, you might not. The point is, that without the security of a good venting system, you and your husband could be comatose before you even knew what was happening. I'm not trying to scare you, it's a fact. Okay, so I am trying to scare you, but with the best possible intentions.
There must be an outside wall within your home which would accomodate a sidewall coaxial venting system. The heat loss through a direct vent system is usually less than 20% of your fuel bill, which already sounds pretty low. Isn't that worth that extra sense of security, to know that if or when that fireplace erupts, you'll still be okay?
I once compared burning gas in an unvented appliance to the times in beginning of the human race, when tribe elders finally banned the practice of burning wood inside the caves and even their best shaman couldn't save those who were overcome by the smoke. (I imagine he claimed there were evil spirits in the smoke, so they moved the fire outside or put a hole in the roof of the cave. How far have we really come?
Heck, I didn't even get into the gallons of water vapour emissions your fireplace is adding to your home each day it's used. Had any problems with wallpaper peeling off yet? Condensation on the windows? Were you aware that the condensation from gas combustion is mildly acidic? It has a PH of roughly 3.2. Comparable to the acidity of Coke.
Nitrogen Dioxide, another by-product of combustion is a known irritant to the eyes, nose and throat. Those with existing lung disorders are particularly susceptible to it.
These last two items are, to me, just two more good reasons for venting your gas appliances.
Thanks for your closing statements, I do appreciate your comments. I just wish you and your husband would reconsider using an unvented fireplace.*G* Since he's into home construction, I wouldn't think the task of punching a small hole in the side wall would be a great challenge to him and he should appreciate the potential damage uncontrolled (acidic) humidity can do to a home, from an unvented gas appliance. Water vapour emissions are considerable from these things and have been known to cause serious damage.
What some see as a passion, others call an obsession.
Thanks again, and take care.
Regards,
Gasman
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Jun 21 '02
7:06 am PDT
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Re: Re: Very Interesting (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
HAHAHAHAHAHA
I am so glad to see I am not the ONLY one that writes "books" in the comment section.
Your lengthy reply really comforts me in knowing that there are others out there too who have a lot to say and are not content with a mere few words tossed out blithely.
I want to start by saying that your reply was great as was your editorial.
I think you misunderstand some of my feelings about the gas vent free heaters and space heaters.
As for the problems etc, we have had ours tested once, and it was fine.
However, I will print out your reply for future reference.
As for being cold, we live in one of the coldest areas there is. Our heater is 22,000 BTU capacity, I think, but have to check again to be sure.
As for heating our whole house, it is not a problem. Our home is not very big, and we can easily have enough heat with very little effort. Our home is well insulated. However, as we are well aware, fresh air can benefit in any case during a winter heating season on a regular basis. We also sleep with the window open slightly .
As for the concerns about safety and all, I really see nothing serious to be concerned about with this heater over conventional furnaces and problems that many people have.
However, that does not mean that we sit by in false security. Any system can malfunction, and any system can become dangerous. As I said, we have several relatives almost die from conventional, SAFE furnaces.
Anyway, do not despair, your comments and concerns do not fall on deaf ears. I will print them out, show them to my husband, and continue in caution.
However, up until now, we have had very good success and results from our vent free heating system. Hopefully this trend will continue, and I still maintain that it is the only heating system (other than electric which is a joke- and never warm enough) that I have not had adverse reactions to.
Keep on writing. You are very knowledgeable and have the passion about these topics that few people have.
I am tired of meeting people who really do not care about things like this. Shrugging and ignoring important things, they just plod through life.
Not you, though. You have a passion. Keep up the great editorials/reviews.
Capri
PS If you find out anything else in the future about vent free or any kind of heating systems, do not hesitate to email me. My husband is involved with home construction and is always absorbing knowledge on ANY topic relevant.- Thanks!
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Jun 21 '02
4:47 am PDT
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Re: Very Interesting (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Dear Capri,
Unfortunately, the Vent-Free Gas Products Alliance, a division of the Gas Appliance Manufacturer's Association, has forced me to generalize my comments. They do not differentiate between any of the various types of products you mentioned. Their advertisements are simple and clear, to the affect that all vent-free products produced by their members are safe.
However, I have stated in several places, the primary concern is unvented gas fireplaces, particularly gas fireplaces which exceed 20,000 Btu's per hour. I do not have much of a problem with some of the smaller unvented modern infra-red gas space heaters. Typically, these products operate far below 20,000 Btu's per hour and do have a reasonably safe track record.
The products I am specifically targeting in my complaint to the U.S. CPSC are manufactured by dozens of manufacturers, it makes no difference which one you choose. Small, medium or large, they are all producing products that can injure and even kill people.
With all due respect to the research you say you have done, as a consumer, you can only research what the companies want you to read. I've done it for fun, from a consumer's viewpoint and trust me when I tell you, there are a lot of, half-truths, misrepresentations and outright lies being told on the web about various products.
You can learn a little more from Consumer's Report, or from other the CPSC web site itself, as to which products have been under recall. That's kind of too little information, too late. I've tried to conduct research from websites all over the world and have yet to find one that offers unbiased factual information. Even Consumer's Report, only teases you with information until you agree to subscribe to their magazine.
My research is based on personal experience, in several leading gas testing laboratories over the past 25 years or more, using state of the art combustion analyzers, pressure gauges, flow rate and temperature meters.
I have had my hands on unvented 36,000 Btu gas fireplaces and I have conducted numerous tests on them and the infamous oxygen depletion pilot systems. I've also designed and developed dozens of vented gas-fired appliances. I understand the combustion process, what affects it, and what kinds of results I can expect under various conditions.
Your comment "First of all, the CO rate from kerosene heaters, woodburning stoves, and space heaters is much higher than with the vent free fireplace that we opted to get four years ago. Leaves me spellbound.
Kerosene heaters, with their self-contained fuel tanks in the center of a living-room are a danger all by themselves, which is another issue altogether.
I've never heard of an unvented wood stove and I think it would be a silly thing to try.
How do you know that the unvented gas fireplace you purchased has low CO emissions? Have you had a combustion analysis done on it? It may well have low CO emissions, but, unless you've had a combustion analyzer hooked up to it, it's impossible to declare it's burning cleanly. Regardless of how sensitive you believe you are to CO. There are other by-products in the combustion of kerosene which people do notice and are sensitive to. Sulpher contents are usually much higher for example. 100, 200, even 500 parts per million of carbon monoxide are totally odorless, colorless, tasteless and dangerous.
I really don't understand how you can believe that a gas space heater is not dangerous and an unvented gas fireplace is safe. A standard gas space heater is designed to produce heat in the most efficient manner possible. That means, the burner is provided with enough primary air to produce a hot clean blue flame. The emissions are generally much cleaner than any gas fireplace on the market. Vented or unvented.
Try to understand, the fundamental point of a gas fireplace is to give the illusion of a wood fire, by burning either natural gas or propane. In order to make gas burn yellow, as a wood fire sometimes does, the required primary air for complete combustion is restricted to an absolute minimum, in order to pass national combustion requirements in the test lab. Natural gas does not burn yellow naturally, it is a design abnormality, which borders on starving the flame for the appropriate oxygen it requires.
Add to this designed, borderline primary air supply, used to create a gas fireplace, a set of artificial logs, (concrete or ceramic fiber) and mineral wool or ceramic coals, designed to have the flames licking off of them, often making them glow, like a piece of wood might. When a gas flame licks against a cooler surface, it's called flame impingement and inevitably, the result is incomplete combustion.
Carbon monoxide and soot are by-products of incomplete combustion.
Perhaps, the thing that worries me that most about your comments was your statement that you use one small unvented gas fireplace to heat your entire house. These products were never designed to become whole house heating systems and even the Vent-Free Gas Products Alliance would agree with me on that.
When these damn things were approved for sale in much of the United States, even the American Gas Association Research division did not evaluate them for central heating useage. They anticipated average "on" time at four hours per day and maximum of eight hours per day. At eight hours per day, some of the accumulated by-products of combustion, within the home exceeded national safety standards for indoor air quality.
To my knowledge, there is not one of the manufacturers of these potentially deadly devices who openly advise consumers to use them as you claim to using yours.
Perhaps, your unit is burning relatively cleanly, and your home is adequately ventilated with fresh air coming in. Perhaps the area you live in is warmer than say, Buffalo or Chicago. The fact that you say you run it on "half power", most of the time, suggests you're not in a cold climate. I don't know from your comments how many Btu's that would be. Perhaps, under all of your personal circumstances, your gas fireplace is running safely, at the moment. PERHAPS?
What about the other consumers in colder regions? Your circumstances sound far from usual. What about ten years from now? Unless you have someone competent tuning up this central unvented gas fireplace, I can guarantee you the walls will be lined with soot particles in the years to come. Every time that appliance turns on or off, a small amount of soot is being ejected into your home.
My final question. WHY? Why wouldn't you and your family want to vent all of the products of combustion through the wall or the roof? Since you claim to only require a small amount of gas to heat your home, the costs of operating a vented unit would be barely noticeable. The biggest benefit, is that, if, when(?) something ever goes wrong with the burners or the primary air or the controls, with a vented unit, it all goes up the chimney. Better still, a direct vent which takes air for combustion from outside and is sealed from the home completely.
Okay, so that wasn't my final question. How can you advocate that some fires are caused by people who don't use their heads with regards to clearances to combustibles? Have you any idea what the discharge temperatures are from your unvented gas fireplace?
I fully acknowledge that there have been an unacceptable level of faulty central furnaces produced over the past twenty years and the recall statistics on them are pretty frightening as well. The logic behind your example of relatives who almost died from carbon monoxide poisoning and your choice to go with an unvented gas fireplace totally escapes me.
YOUR COMMENTS:
very valid, but not as dire as you make them to be IF THE CONSUMER IS EDUCATED AND CAUTIOUS WITH ANY SOURCE OF HEAT.
You did mention that the low BTU heaters are not your biggest concern, but I maintain that if you run a higher one at half power, it is acceptable as well.
This is turning into a book, instead of a response to a comment. However, I should point out to you, that what you call running your gas fireplace on "half-power", is more commonly referred to as reduced input. Essentially, your fireplace has a gas control with a variable flow control knob. So instead of operatiing your natural gas fireplace at 3.5" w.c. manifold pressure you are operating it at about 1.2" w.c. manifold pressure. This means you will burn about 50% less gas per hour. Unfortunately, any gas technician will tell you, that operating it this way will usually generate much higher carbon monoxide levels than operating it at it's maximum input rating. Don't take my word for it, have a combustion analysis for carbon monoxide done on the fireplace at full input and then at 50% of the maximum input. Both tests should be conducted from a cold start to see the difference as the CO levels will decline as the unit warms up.
Glad you took time to write this comment as I can see there are still a lot of misconceptions out there and some people experiment with things they know nothing about. Unless you have a combustion analysis done by a reputable company, you haven't convinced me that you have found the safest heating system for you and your family.
I'm not trying to scare people off from a potentially safer heat source and I don't believe one can blame the incidents of carbon monoxide poisoning on "the foolishness of others". It's actually more due to misrepresentations made by the industry who manufacture them, poor installation practices, misapplication of a poor technology, lack of annual service, and misinformed testimonials such as yours.
I only wish I could find the great fun in this "stimulating discussion", but then, that's the difference between us. I've been in this industry my entire adult life and you feel you've found the correct answers through personal research.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you take my suggestion seriously, to have your fireplace tested by a reputable company.
Take care,
Regards,
Gasman
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Jun 20 '02
10:02 am PDT
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Re: See What You Did? (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Dear Helen,
Sorry to put you through the decision process, but thanks for the comments and the rating.
I'm afraid that, until these so-called "big" organizations answer a few questions and respond to some serious concerns, I feel I have no choice, but, to keep asking the questions. I do try to vary my questions a bit, to keep it interesting. However, it all comes down to,... Why do it?
We may never be able to eradicate accidental incidents of carbon monoxide poisoning, accidental fires, or health problems associated with the by-products of combustion. But, we can damn well try, can't we?
The more I delve into these issues, the more frustrated I become with groups like GAMA, who refuse to even answer a few simple questions or make a few changes that will save lives.
Thanks again for your comments.
All the best,
Gasman
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Jun 20 '02
8:06 am PDT
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Re: You - Mr Gas Man - (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Once again, thank you for your kind words Virginia,
It seems I still have a long way to go, before the bureaucrats and some so-called informed people get the message.
I think what bothers me the most is that there are a lot of people with the expertise, who do know the dangers and they're too afraid of the reprecussions from the industry that employs them.
There's no doubt that many of the incidents that are reported, involve those in a lower income bracket and older people. However, this problem is growing far beyond those people.
I also agree that some people use these products to heat certain zones within their homes, such as bedrooms, at night. That's even worse than using them in the living room and there are specific warnings published against that practice, which are often ignored or overlooked.
As for having the courage to take on the "big guys", we'll just have to see how big they really are. They all put their pants on the same way I do in the morning.
Just one person's health and/or life saved from the pain of becoming another govenment statistic is good enough for me.
Take care,
Kind regards,
Gasman
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Jun 20 '02
7:55 am PDT
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Very Interesting (Reply to this comment)
by Caprig
Of course, your article (letter) is kind of unclear in some ways(ducking and running).
What I mean by that is that there are MANY situations where space heaters, vent-free fireplaces, and kerosene heaters are completely different from each other. In some parts of your letter, you generalize them together.
Also, it depends on the manufacturers as well.
As with you, I have done a lot of research into such heating sources. I do not claim to have the experience you have within the industry, but I have had a lot of experience with different heating sources to develop an educated decision.
First of all, the CO rate from kerosene heaters, woodburning stoves, and space heaters is much higher than with the vent free fireplace that we opted to get four years ago.
I am extremely sensitive to CO levels (despite what they say about people not being able to notice). I can not be in the same room with kerosene heaters unless on VERY low and even then I have to leave.
I can not be in the same house with a woodburning stove. I have severe reactions and can feel a lack of air.
I also can not be around space heaters. They make me feel similarly.
As for the vent free fireplace- I have had no problem at all. NONE.
Of course, there are a lot of variables. First of all, we keep our house cool. Our entire home is heated by one small vent free fireplace, completely contained and gated in. Also we have an excellently constructed model. I realize that some brands (esp one made in Canada) are really horrid.
If we were to run our heater at full power, I would probably feel sick. We have never had to go above half power.
Many people keep their homes way too warm. Also, they do not use their heads about clearance with fire units. Again, another reason for fires, etc.
As for the heaters being not as good as claimed- is anything?
We have two sets of relatives who purchased NEW conventional furnaces- gas and propane- who had dangerous levels of CO in their homes.
In one case their home almost caused their deaths.
Many people do not bother to be educated. I can tell you that your concerns are very valid, but not as dire as you make them to be IF THE CONSUMER IS EDUCATED AND CAUTIOUS WITH ANY SOURCE OF HEAT.
You did mention that the low BTU heaters are not your biggest concern, but I maintain that if you run a higher one at half power, it is acceptable as well.
Glad you took the time to write this, as I know many people are too lazy to learn and experiment with their heating sources to find the safest method for THEM.
I only am concerned that you are scaring off people from a potentially safer heat source for THEIR PERSONAL LIVES because of the foolishness of others. It has certainly saved us sickness and money at the same time to have switched to this heat. It does not hurt once in a while to get fresh air in the house no matter what type of heat you use either, during wintertime.
Not all vent free heaters are dangerous. Just like not all furnaces are dangerous either. But based upon my personal experience, I would say that home based furnaces are far more dangerous......Does that mean that they are?
Thanks for the stimulating discussion. It was great fun.
Capri
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Jun 20 '02
7:32 am PDT
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See What You Did? (Reply to this comment)
by pogomom,  in Home and Garden
You forced me to make a decision! I had to choose between two of your most informative reviews for the 'Most Helpful' rating and this one won. Why do I know that this will come up again and again when reading your fact filled advice?
Thanks so much for posting this. It's going to save lives and you deserve our thanks.
xoxox Helen
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Jun 19 '02
9:01 pm PDT
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You - Mr Gas Man - (Reply to this comment)
by Granniemose
have guts. What a service you perform for us. Not many of us have the expertise to know the dangers - and probably the unventilated heaters are used mostly by older people who purchased them a long time ago, or by relatively poor people who need a supplement on cold winter nights. Often, especially when money is low, due to unemployment, or large financial problems, a family member will decide to lower the high cost of gas in central heating by lowering the temperature. Then they use space heaters in bedrooms, not knowing they are gambling with the lives of themselves and their children. In areas where it is permitted, gas and/or electricity can be turned off if payment is late. These are the people who turn to space heaters, and unventilated fire places.
Bless you for bringing it to the attention of the public, and bless you for having the courage to take on the "big guys". How many lives did you save today?
Virginia
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Jun 19 '02
11:58 am PDT
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