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Re: Re: After further examination... (Reply to this comment)
by Stephen_Murray
I didn't mean to criticize your rating. I thought that it was amusing that going to "Just In" to see if I saw the pattern you described the very first review I saw was one your rated "Helpful." I do not question your ratings in general or that one in particular. For me it was in the gray zone between "Helpful" and "Very Helpful" and I went the other way.
But my conclusion from several days of looking at new reviews of movies is that ratings, even ratings by "advisors" are generous (grade inflation). I have complained of advisors rating by the inch, but I saw epinions by members marked as new receiving VH. The many new member reviews rated SH tended to be 4-5 sentences long and devoid of information even about why they liked or disliked the product. That is, I thought that "Somewhat Helpful" was too generous, not too harsh. I can't imagine to whom these epinions could be helpful.
I do not see that ratings standards are too high. They seem not very high at all, so that "helpful" on an epinions by a veteran member is widely regarded as an insult. You could call me pollyannish, though you'd be the first person to do so! I am and have been critical of many aspects of the epinions enterprise, but don't see persecution of able newbies.
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Jul 13 '02
10:03 am PDT
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great point (Reply to this comment)
by jankp
Some reviews go into way too much detail and it's ridiculous. We're not a professional critic's site and should not have checklists for rating. Even my sweetie thought I should've gone into more price detail on my latest book review. I think many people, members, want the review to take the place of the book.
Jan :-)
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Jul 10 '02
1:10 am PDT
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Re: This is... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
Very much my idea, and thank you for commenting.
Cheers!
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Jul 06 '02
9:47 pm PDT
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Re: After further examination... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
I thought this comment over for a while, and toyed with several angles of response. I have finally decided to not respond as much as possible.
I guess about all I can say is that I have a view on the way things are, and you don't agree with that view. Fair enough.
Although the title of this emphasizes new people, they are not really the point. I'm not really after the new people as the main thrust of what I am saying. My real point is just that many people rate reviews based on standards that are simply too high. If you, or anyone, disagrees with this, you are more than welcome to. I am simply adding my bit of babble to the site.
As for the rating I gave, though I don't know the review in question of course, I am the first to admit that I give H ratings where many people give VH ratings. I have my system for rating just like everyone else. I think my system is fair just as everyone certainly thinks their own system is fair. I have no doubts that an argument could be made that the review could be VH, but I'm sure I could make my argument that it was H.
This is all really beside the point though. I was not really attempting to point out a certain set of people, or a certain way of rating, or any sort of statistically significant general rating scheme. I was really more trying to point out a general attitude.
Everyone is going to have their system for deciding on a rating for a review. As I mentioned, Epinions leaves this very open to the individual with a very limited set of guidelines. I may rate certain reviews more harshly than others think appropriate, and I may rate things more leniently than others think appropriate.
What I think is important though is that however I may rate things, the underlying idea behind my system for rating things is that this is a site where normal people give their opinions and not a site where profressional writers write reviews.
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Jul 06 '02
9:46 pm PDT
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This is... (Reply to this comment)
by pluckyduck
... the third time I've read your piece. I keep coming back because I'm enjoying hearing my thoughts in your words. Your words flow together quite well, you know.
I also keep coming back because I'm convinced I've commented on this piece already but I'll be danged if I can find it here. ::confused::
Anyhoo, thank you. My first love of Epinions is in hearing the voices of people, lots and lots of different people. If Epinions self-selects so that only the erudite and/or obsessively detail oriented are left standing, we've lost a lot of voices.
Thumbs up for an Epinion that is a natural byproduct, too.
Andrea
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Jul 06 '02
6:13 pm PDT
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After further examination... (Reply to this comment)
by Stephen_Murray
Usually I don't go far beyond epinions to which I am alerted, but I wanted to look for myself at what is going on. Interestingly, when I looked at "Just In" (for movies) the very first review I saw was by someone marked as new. The epinion was rated helpful by one member/advisor: you. I thought a case could be made for rating it VH, and did so.
In subsequent forays, reading all the epinions by those marked as new, I did not find any that I thought were under-rated. Indeed, there were many rated "somewhat helpful" that I thought were not helpful at all. None of the others rated "helpful" seemed even arguably deserving of a higher rating, and there were some epinions by new members rated "Very Helpful," most deservingly.
On the sample of about 60 movie reviews by new members, I thought that 20+ were rated too highly, and one arguably not high enough, so I don't think new members are being judged more harshly. The average rating is lower than the average rating of veteran members, but that is because those producing unhelpful reviews generally get discouraged. (This is only a statistical generalization; there are some who continue to churn out uninformative and/or illiterate epinions.)
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Jul 05 '02
9:19 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Well done. (Reply to this comment)
by sleeper54
...!! lol !!!...
Someone actually reads those things...??
:-)
sleeper54
' not wasting time on the public library dime '
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Jul 02 '02
5:55 pm PDT
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Re: Comment [conted.] (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
I must admit that your comment leaves me somewhat confused.
You do me a disservice in thinking that I underestimate the reach of Epinions. I actually don't think it is at all relevant to the issue at hand, but I don't underestimate it.
My statement that this is a stupid, little site where people babble is not indicative of such an underestimation. It is indicative of my belief (as you correctly surmised) that that is what the site ought to be. Moreover, it is what I was led to understand the site was.
If you feel this is harsh and cynical, I think you misunderstand the statement. It is what it is. Some of the better parts of life (in my estimation) could be well summed up as stupid, little something or others.
The corner coffeeshop is just a stupid, little place where people go and babble at each other. That's actually what's great about it.
Now it might be that the coffeshop is called Starbucks, and there are suddenly thousands of them all over the place. It might be that because of this millions of people are 'reached'. If, in the course of such an expansion, the thing turns into a giant, corporate machine and the individual shops cannot seriously be described as stupid, little places where people go and babble, I maintain that this is a bad thing.
If that is somehow harsh and cynical it's just as well with me.
I want a stupid, little site where people go and babble, and I don't care how many people visit it.
As to the rest of the comment, I am certainly happy to provide a forum for listing the criteria for rating a review, but I don't know that it particularly addresses the issue. Good stuff though.
Cheers!
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Jul 02 '02
11:40 am PDT
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Re: Re: Well done. (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
Hey. I got quoted.
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Jul 02 '02
10:59 am PDT
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Re: I hate to say it (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
Thanks for the comment. What you say is quite true.
Cheers!
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Jul 02 '02
10:58 am PDT
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Comment [conted.] (Reply to this comment)
by macresarf1
. . . ran into one of our famous bugs.
A Very Helpful movie review, long or short, as I say, needs to be accurate, with specific helpful detail to make a decision to see it, and should have an original personal touch.
-- "How does the Movie compare to others you've seen?" Many reviewers ignore this aspect.
-- "Suggest similar movies you think others might enjoy." This aspect requires skill and knowledge.
-- "Try not to summarize the plot; analyze it." In other words, give the reader not all of what happened in a movie, but why it happened. How well was that done? What emotional (and more rarely, intellectual) truth was conveyed through that plot device?
-- "Who would enjoy this movie?" What is is the target audience? You may give five stars to THIRTEEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE SAME THING. You may think it was wonderful. But you better not tell all the people who flocked to SCOOBY-DOO or MR. DEEDS that they will like it. Some of a reflective bent will but most may not.
"Why did you see the movie?" Here is where the original personal touch comes in. We in Movies (and Books or Music) have some advantage over other categories, in that our emotional and intellectual interests help dictate why we experience a work of art, and how we respond to it.
I agree that older reviews and reviews by newbies are a problem. Newbies should always be given helpful advice and some slack in their first few efforts. Older reviews may need to be re-rated. I hope that you will work with psychovant and me on these matters.
The bottom line, from Epinions point of view, is really, will this review help a potential customer make an informed choice. And, as you suggest, the Community, with all its variety of tastes and experience, has proven Epinions first and unique in its field. Not "just a stupid, little site where people babble."
Provocative stuff, you have here.
[Macresarf1]
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Jul 01 '02
1:09 pm PDT
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Comment. (Reply to this comment)
by macresarf1
Dear Vormancian: I agree with you that most of us here are not professional writers, and few reviews of movies or anything else we may have written would make a dime in the professional writing world. However, I find you harsh and cynical when you write, "This is a stupid, little site where people babble." [In a way, that's the kind of site for which you argue.]
You underestimate the potential reach of Epinions. There are reviewers here (mostly in autos or electronics) who have had hundreds of thousands of reads, people who at least opened up one of that reviewers pieces. The average magazine writers, certainly some of the finest American short story writers (our strong suit), come nowhere near that readership.
The key to a good review is in the ratings and the guidelines. How helpful is a given review to a stranger to a product in making a decision to buy it?
The review can be long or short, but the key is accuracy, specific helpful detail and originality.
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Jul 01 '02
12:35 pm PDT
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Re: Well done. (Reply to this comment)
by sleeper54
Hey pambo/Pam,
When I do a non-fiction review I tend to bury the reader in facts/quotes.
My fiction stuff is very limited and I don't have a good handle on what I do with those.
But when I rate I certainly don't look for either length or 'chapter 1., chapter 2., etc...:-)
But I do see the point of your comment and of this review.
I'll read&rate your two new book reviews later...:-)
sleeper54 ~~ tom
"We don't need to abandon standards altogether, but let's try and be a little less serious in our seriousness." --Vormancian
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Jun 30 '02
8:25 am PDT
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I hate to say it (Reply to this comment)
by Simply_Crispy
but the vast majority of the time, people see a long review and automatically rubber-stamp it with a VH. One review I read last week was only something like 400 words long but completely brilliant, and yet most people had given it a SH.
Suffice to say, the vast majority of my reviews are sprawling affairs. Ordinarily, I'm very much against waffling on about the same subject (he says, tongue firmly wedged in cheek) but it seems that the only way to get a VH these days is to keep talkin', talkin', talkin'... luckily, I'm very good at this.
Great review.
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Jun 29 '02
4:02 am PDT
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Re: Well done. (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
Exactly so, and this is of course to do with non-fiction. People do have different writing styles, and different ideas about what they think is helpful. For myself, I think the essay is far more helpful than a chapter by chapter overview.
Nothing against chapter by chapter tacklings per se, but I see most of these as being astoundingly similar to a movie review that is nothing but plot synopsis.
Thanks for the read and comment.
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Jun 28 '02
1:11 pm PDT
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Re: ! (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
I haven't overly looked at Amazon's reviews, but from what I have seen I think I might say something of a happy medium would be the best thing. What I have seen on Amazon might be a little too light, but point well taken.
Cheers!
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Jun 28 '02
1:07 pm PDT
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Well done. (Reply to this comment)
by pambo
I'd like to add my own observations, after two years on the site, and after a rather long break from it. I've noticed a very strong trend toward requiring book reviews to incorporate lots of specific quotes, or chapter-by-chapter explanations before they can get a VH. It seems to me that people have very different writing styles, and that an essay that provides information about a book is at least as valuable as a book review that says chapter one said this, chapter two said that.
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Jun 27 '02
10:38 am PDT
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! (Reply to this comment)
by dedemw
If you go to Amazon or other opinion sites- that is exactly what the reviews are- people just stating their opinion. When you write on EPs, you have to learn the science.
Ingredients, page count, ISBN, blah...
I gotcha and I agree
: )
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Jun 27 '02
12:29 am PDT
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Re: Totally agree (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
I certainly hope my review is never used to support such a scheme, because I personally would not do so. Quite honestly, I could not begin to take the time to write a review if I had to make it under a certain word count (unless it was ridiculously high, and then why bother?).
As a famous person (off the top of my head I believe it was Pascal) once said, 'this letter is longer than usual, because I did not have time to make it shorter'. I spend enough time writing reviews, and a word cap would mean editing them down (in many cases) and that means more time.
I certainly agree that reviews could be limited to 500 words and still allow people the opportunity to help others make buying decisions, etc., but my question is, so what? What problem does the word count solve? You might also say that a person could be limited to contributing 200 reviews, and they would still have an opportunity to... whatever, and that would be true, but I would again have to ask, so what? What does it have to do with anything?
The idea I am trying to stand behind is lowering the standard necessary for a VH, thus getting people VH ratings that I feel deserve them. Basically, I would like people to see that the best writers at the site only set the standard for what it means to be one of the best writers at the site, not the standard for what is required to get a VH rating.
Maybe I just don't see the idea behind the word count rule. Maybe I am just rather opposed to rules.
Either way, I don't see how it helps the situation.
Appreciate the read and comment though. ;)
Cheers!
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Jun 26 '02
12:54 pm PDT
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Re: I hate to... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
What else is there to say?
;)
Cheers!
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Jun 26 '02
12:39 pm PDT
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Re: disagreement (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
****I don't think that it's true that new reviewers can't get VH ratings. It seems to me that there is far more "grade inflation" than unfairly harsh ratings, though for a newbie to get a VH from an "advisor" may be difficult.****
It's hard to know what to say to that. Certainly grade inflation, rubberstamping, etc., happen as well. It's not precisely what I'm driving at though. The new people are not really at issue, though it has been my experience that it can be pretty hard for a newbie to get high ratings. My point is that the rating scale is skewed to the extent that VHs are, largely, unnecessarily hard to get.
****To be an "advisor" one has to dispense some low ratings and from my (jaundiced) view, many advisors do this by a combination of rating by length (quite possibly without reading what they are rating) and some picking on new members. But I don't think that non-advisors follow suit.****
First off, I don't know that your opening statement is accurate. I have retained my Advisor status from the beginning of the name Advisor, and some months I have gotten very behind in reading, and have had very little time to read reviews apart from those people I get alerts for. During those months I gave out very few low ratings, and nevertheless retained my title.
As to what non-Advisors do, I have no statistics of course, but it seems to me that many who are not advisors adopt the rating style.
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Jun 26 '02
12:39 pm PDT
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Re: Please Note (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
Wow! A perfect place. ;)
Thanks for the read and comment.
Cheers!
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Jun 26 '02
12:30 pm PDT
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Re: See why (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
The answer to your question, if you follow me, would be yes and no.
That I answer that way, is exactly what I do not like.
You are a very good writer and I am inclined to immediately respond that I have no idea why you wouldn't write more movie reviews. Unfortunately, I have to also answer in the affirmative because of just what I say here.
In fact, your very short comment here is some of the best evidence for just what I am saying. Here you are, a very good writer turning out very good reviews, and your response to this is 'see why I don't write many movie reviews'.
There is more than one way to be very helpful in my mind. If someone writes a rather long disection of a movie, exploring the director's efforts, the symbolism, the themes of the movie and whether or not they 'work', and etc., I am going to find that very helpful. But, if someone who is not interested in movies to that great a degree, writes a short review that tells me why they liked it from a more 'common person' perspective, I am going to find that very helpful as well (if it is done well).
Thanks for stopping by.
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Jun 26 '02
12:28 pm PDT
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Re: So much to read, so much to think... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
****The theme that I find bubbling underneath your entire essay is the idea that only VH is a 'good' rate. I have never understood that.****
I can see where one could get that impression from what I wrote here, but that is not at all my view. I even wrote another of these rambles a while ago entitled 'H stand for Helpful', wherein I tried to convey the idea that an H rating should not be seen as a bad rating.
The general idea I tried to get at with this could as easily be applied to those who get only SH rating when they should get an H, and I suppose I should have spent more time on that and the fact that an H rating is not a bad rating.
I don't think anyone should take an H rating as a slap in the face. I think, however, that is a seperate issue from the one I was trying to look at. It is a point well taken however.
****Your toaster example has been correctly 'nicked' by gracef as being an example of too much detail receiving an H. I am not sure how that supports your over-all hypothesis.****
I am not at all opposed to the idea of rating things as less than VH specifically because there is too much information, filler, and general unrelated babble. As I mentioned in my comment to her, I did not feel this was the case for that particular review, and I should have made that more clear.
As to the rest of your comment, I pretty much agree wholeheartedly. I did not mean to imply that an H would necessarily drive anyone away, or that we need to overrate new writers in order to make them feel good about themselves, or any such thing. Merely that the bar is currently unnecessarily, unreasonably high, and that in itself is likely to keep people away.
I appreciate the comment.
Cheers!
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Jun 26 '02
12:19 pm PDT
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Re: ~~~~ (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
You're welcome.
I appreciate your adding your comment.
Cheers!
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Jun 26 '02
12:07 pm PDT
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Totally agree (Reply to this comment)
by 4-1-1
Your comment, I think, can stand to support one change that I personally would like to see instituted: placing an upper word limit on reviews.
I know it is unpopular with many, but I think reviews can be limited to 500 words (for example) and writers will still have an opportunity to provide solid information to help other make a buying decision or make other recommendations to shoppers -- the two most important goals of an Epinion.
Tom / 4-1-1
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Jun 26 '02
11:46 am PDT
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I hate to... (Reply to this comment)
by BlackCat2
Follow up such a detailed and excellent article with a short comment but the only thing I can really say is:
"I agree"
Great write,
~,,,^..^,,,~ BlackCat2
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Jun 26 '02
2:15 am PDT
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disagreement (Reply to this comment)
by Stephen_Murray
I don't think that it's true that new reviewers can't get VH ratings. It seems to me that there is far more "grade inflation" than unfairly harsh ratings, though for a newbie to get a VH from an "advisor" may be difficult.
To be an "advisor" one has to dispense some low ratings and from my (jaundiced) view, many advisors do this by a combination of rating by length (quite possibly without reading what they are rating) and some picking on new members. But I don't think that non-advisors follow suit.
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Jun 25 '02
11:59 pm PDT
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Please Note (Reply to this comment)
by lorace
That I mentioned the length of the cord on a can-opener this morning BEFORE READING THIS! LOL
Great essay. The more things we find wrong and correct them, the sooner this will be a perfect place.
Amen to all,
Lorace
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Jun 25 '02
7:51 pm PDT
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See why (Reply to this comment)
by SurgRN911
I write so very few movie reviews :)
Nicely done
Di
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Jun 25 '02
2:40 pm PDT
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