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help/questions (Reply to this comment)
by vincenet777
Thank you very much for the time/effort/heart you out into the article. I am looking into the Nazarene Church (recently contacted a Nazarene University for possible employment), but I am wondering if you could help me with mine following concerns? Should we desire to remain under the 10 commandments (the second * under to Specific Rules Section)? Are we not now under the law of the Spirit, for if we desire to go under one part of the law aren’t we now committed to all of it and perhaps nullifying grace? I think D.L. Moody stated the commandments take us to the cross but no further? Perhaps I am too influenced by grace teachers/preachers that may believe this mindset lends itself to be too sin (which in of itself cannot cause loss of salvation-but perhaps its affects on the heart may bring out apostasy-would a Nazarene disagree on this?) or performance focused (even though I’m sure Nazarenes believe this is an ETHIC that is only a certain byproduct). Also, I was wondering the difference Nazarenes have with Methodists and Wesleyan Methodists? Is the former just more liberal and the later more conservative? sory for the length. Thanks again. God bless.
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Jun 16 '09
8:40 pm PDT
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Re: I am a Christian, and a member of the Nazarene Church! (Reply to this comment)
by bo57
No where around here, (OK) do Nazarenes dance. In fact they preach against it!!!
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May 18 '08
8:10 pm PDT
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Re: Was a Nazarene (Reply to this comment)
by bo57
I understand where you are coming from, you need to understand your wife is human and therefore NOT perfect. Don't condemn the whole religion on her behavior.
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May 18 '08
8:09 pm PDT
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Re: Wonderful essay, but I do have a few questions: (Reply to this comment)
by bo57
I had that question also, I found out back them wine or water was about all they had to drink, and it was told to me, wine back then was NOT as wine is today.
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May 18 '08
8:06 pm PDT
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Wonderful essay, but I do have a few questions: (Reply to this comment)
by tomtom30
How can the Nazarene church say that a condition of membership is abstaining from alcohol when Jesus and his disciples drank wine?
How can the church ordain women as ministers when Paul said in 1 Timothy 2:12-14 that this is not permitted?
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Dec 10 '05
1:06 pm PST
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Was a Nazarene (Reply to this comment)
by lsmithfortytwo
My father is a Nazarene minister (has been since before I was born). After being in the Nazarene church my whole life, and educated at Nazarene schools, I was stunned four years ago by unemployment, depression, anger, and finally a difficult divorce, initiated by my wife's father (a board member and a Nazarene district advisory board member), my wife (and her father) remained (and still do, to the best of my knowledge) on the local and district church boards, and the pastor (after several calls from me to appeal to her from a scriptural perspective not to proceed) said there was nothing he could do. My wife called it "religious garbage." She said she didn't care what the Bible said or what the church said, she was done.
So, I have left the Nazarene church, and am not quiet about it. I now have a difficult time swallowing (even from my father) the message that the Nazarene church treats Scripture as the ultimate authority, when I have seen otherwise.
Since that time, I have begun to understand God's highest call - Christlikeness - still stands, regardless of what others around me do and say. It is still a daily struggle to maintain an attitude of forgiveness toward all involved. But I still struggle with a church that seems to refuse to follow the "hard" parts of scripture, especially related to conflicts and discipline within the church.
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Oct 24 '05
4:56 pm PDT
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I am a Christian, and a member of the Nazarene Church! (Reply to this comment)
by mrs_powers
My husband is a Nazarene Pastor,and my dad is one as well. So you could say, I'm pretty much all "Nazarene". But, I have to disagree with a few things. First of all the dancing, I have been to many Nazrene churches where we dance in the aisles, including my own. We actually have a dance team! Also, I do know Nazarenes that speak in tongues, and I believe that the gift is real and authentic.
About the eternal security thing, to tkp93, I believe that I have to ask forgiveness for my sins, even though I have been saved and sanctified. But lets just say for a moment, that I am wrong, and that I am eternally secure, is it going to hurt that I am spending a few extra moments on my knees? But lets say that you are wrong, what will happen if you are sinning and not asking for forgiveness? Just something to think about. Ultimately, though,it is about your heart, and God knows your heart. Remember John 15:18-19.
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Jul 28 '05
6:43 pm PDT
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Re: I grew up Nazarene, but am not one (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Oops! I missed the notification for this comment. I certainly didn't mean to ignore it.
Thank you for the well-thought out response. I obviously disagree with you about sanctification and sin, but I do appreciate you providing another viewpoint. Ultimately, our way to Truth comes not in closing our ears, but in listening to how others see Christ and God and treating their interpretations with respect. And so, I respect what you have to say, even while continuing to disagree with it.
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Jun 06 '05
7:57 am PDT
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I grew up Nazarene, but am not one (Reply to this comment)
by tkp93
I grew up Nazarene, but am not one. I hope all should understand they have the right to accept or reject any one man's systematic theology. True christians and godly men will not always agree and that's fine. I am not nazarene due to the Arminian leanings although I would not disagree with all of it. The eternal security of the believer is well taught in scripture and gives true christians great comfort. I disagree with the definition of sin as stated by Redlass or the Nazarene church rather. Redlass notes:
Original sin and personal sin. Actual and personal sin is the “voluntary violation of a known law of God by a morally responsible person.” It is NOT mistakes, shortcomings, faults, failures, infirmities, or deviations from perfect conduct—this is extremely important to understanding the rest of our doctrine.
Sin as defined in the original languages is much different.
The key Greek word translated sin, HAMARTANO, means to err or miss the the mark (Lk. 15:18; Jn. 5:14; 8:11; 9:2; Ro. 2:12; 3:23; 5:12; 1 Co. 6:18; 15:34; Ep. 4:26; 1 Ti. 5:20; Tit. 3:11; He. 3:17; 10:26; 2 Pe. 2:4; 1 Jn. 1:10; 2:1; 3:6,8,9; 5:16,18).
The key Hebrew word translated sin, CHATA, also means to err or miss the mark (Ge. 20:6; 39:9; Ex. 9:27; 20:20; 32:30-33; Le. 4:2; 5:1; 6:2; Nu. 15:27; 16:22; De. 1:41; 9:16; 19:15; 20:18; Ju. 10:10,15; 1 Sa. 12:10; 2 Sa. 12:13; 19:20; 24:10; 1 Ki. 8:46-50; 2 Ch. 6:22; 6:37-39; Ne. 1:6; 9:29; Job 1:5,22; 2:10; 7:20; 10:14; 31:30; Ps. 4:4; 39:1; 41:4; 51:4; 78:17; 119:11; Pr. 8:36; 14:21; 19:2; 20:2; Ec. 7:20; Is. 42:24; 64:5; Je. 2:35; 14:7; 33:8; 40:3; Eze. 18:4; Da. 9:5-15).
What is sin? (1) The transgression of the law (1 Jn. 3:4; Jam. 2:9-10). (2) To come short of God's glory (Ro. 3:23). (3) To turn to one's own way (Is. 53:6). (4) To forsake the Lord (Ju. 10:10; 1 Sa. 12:10). (5) To do that which is wicked in the sight of God (De. 9:18). (6) To do that which is amiss, wrong (2 Ch. 6:37). (7) Lack of righteousness (Ro. 3:10).
Entire or complete sanctification is also obviously not possible in this life. It is a process that a christian will never leave as long as they live on this earth. So in order for Nazarenes to believe in complete sanctification, they have to re-define what sin is in order to accomplish their own faulty definition.
SANCTIFICATION. "Sanctify," "holy," and "saint" are translated from the same Greek words. They mean to be set apart for special service. In the Bible many things other than people are said to be sanctified--the Tabernacle furniture (Ex. 40:10,11,13); a mountain (Ex. 19:23); food (1 Ti. 4:5). It is even possible for a believer to sanctify God in his heart (1 Pe. 3:15). Thus, to sanctify, or to make holy, does not mean to purify or to make sinless, but to set apart something for God and for His service.
In relation to the Christian, sanctification or holiness refers to being set apart to God from sin. There are three distinctly different aspects of this sanctification: past, present, and future. Every Christian can say, "I have been sanctified; I am being sanctified; I will yet be sanctified.
(This was taken from The Encyclopedia of the Bible and Christianity by David Cloud)
Redlass notes correctly that this is extremely important to understanding the rest of the Nazarene doctrine and this is one reason why I am not Nazarene. Doctrine is definitely important and without a proper definition, you will be easily mislead or should I say, err or miss the mark.
Thanks.
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Mar 22 '05
4:01 pm PST
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Re: both interesting and informative (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
I can't answer for any individual pastor. While it would be simple to say that every church should be the same, they aren't. They do take on the characteristics of their members and their leaders. Each will have their own personality.
I understand why the church does not allow secret memberships. The idea is supposed to be that Christians are supposed to live their life in the light, in the open and that a secret society membership goes against that. Ideally, Christians in the holiness tradition should be living in glass houses with their lives open to scrutiny. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the secret society or that you shouldn't be proud of it and your membership. It just means that the two memberships are incompatible.
That being said, the Nazarene church does take the position that membership is not for everyone. They will welcome you to attend and reap the benefits of the services without becoming a member if you either disagree with their positions or do not choose to abide by the requirements. Neither make you any less of a Christian. It simply means you prefer to pursue your relationship with God in a different way.
As for the money, well, we could get into a whole other discussion. Yes, I am uncomfortable with materialism and greed. But I also recognize the importance of stewardship. Stewardship and tithing is much more God's gift to me than it is my gift to God. It is a blessing to give and the blessing is mine. So, yes, I do think that pastors should teach us to give and stress how important that is. Also, churches have bills just like anyone else. They need to be able to pay those bills and keep their staff fed and educated.
I apologize for being so tardy in my response. I did not see this comment until today.
Bridgette
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May 17 '04
11:46 am PDT
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Re: Very helpful (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Bob:
You're very welcome and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I apologize for taking nearly a year to respond.
It's also flattering to be told that some of my beliefs may come out in the way I interact with others. It is certainly what I strive for.
Bridgette
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May 17 '04
11:39 am PDT
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Re: Bridgette, (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Oh dear, I'm a whole year tardy in replying to this comment. I must have turned off comment alerts or something, because I missed several of the comments.
My sincerest apologies.
Thank you for your comment. I know that when I listened to you talk about your faith I was similarly surprised at how much we had in common, despite our faiths being outwardly very different.
I would enjoy any sort of point-by-point discussion you might ever care to have. It is good to talk with someone who doesn't automatically shy away from religious topics or jump immediately to stereotypes.
Bridgette
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May 17 '04
11:37 am PDT
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both interesting and informative (Reply to this comment)
by proud2beamason
Up until recently I was attending a nice small Nazarene church in Ligonier, Indiana. I was handed a membership application which had on it seven questions, one of which asked if I belonged to a "secret order" and would I seperate from it. A few months ago I had joined a Masonic Lodge(something I am very proud of), and told the minister so.
Afer the service I asked the minister if a Mason could join the church. He replied "No". I really enjoyed the people there, and the worship experience, but I'm wise enough to not financially support a church that would allow me to continue attending, but not join. Very hypocritical, if you ask me. I opted to quit attending that church
Question: Has the Nazarene Church always been so money-hungry? It seems that the pastor is MUCH more concerned about $$ than he is the state of the souls of those who attend his church. Money. Money. Money. That's primarily what the pastor talks about.
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Aug 16 '03
3:33 am PDT
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Very helpful (Reply to this comment)
by rmthunter
and informative. It also explains/elaborates some of the characteristics I've seen you display at EA.
Thanks for this one.
Bob
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Jun 10 '03
5:58 pm PDT
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Bridgette, (Reply to this comment)
by panguitch
this is an amazing essay. The time and sincerity you put into it is clear.
I haven't really known specifics about the Church of the Nazarene before now, just the generalities common to most American evangelical, theologically conservative, protestant churches. I'm glad for the knowledge.
And more than a little taken aback by the affinity I feel for your statement of faith and the lifestyle encouraged--though I've always found with almost any tradition that the deeper I look at the core issues, the more similar they are (including my own).
I'd love to do a point by point comment, but you've just about put it out of reach with your thoroughness. Besides, this is about you and your faith.
Excellent job informing of the Church of the Nazarene, and also sharing your own life journey.
-Andy
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Mar 28 '03
6:48 pm PST
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Re: Thanks for the information! (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate you taking the time to read and share.
The Nazarene Church is a little less than 100 years old if you count it as a denomination alone. However, we did not spring up as a "new" faith. Rather we trace our history and heritage back through the Methodist Church, the Anglican Church, and the Roman Catholic Church. We acknowledge each of them as our heritage and believe ourselves to be responding to a call unto holiness--a call as ancient as the world itself. Our church created no new doctrine--about that our founder was adament. Rather we formed so that we could better able to respond to the mission that God called us to.
Hope that helps explain!
Bridgette
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Jan 02 '03
5:48 am PST
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Very Enjoyable Explanation (Reply to this comment)
by sunnydayM
As a Baptist, I see that our beliefs have a lot of similarity. Baptists are not totally Calvinistic, though we do have a strong leaning toward Calvinism. Each member is free to believe as he/she chooses. This is referred to as autonomy of the believer.
So, you will find that not all Baptists totally agree with one another. Still, we generally agree and have a bond that allows us to be comfortable with the differences.
I would like to touch on the bumper sticker you mentioned. I disagree that it is a shallow statement. Many people seem to think that Christians consider themselves to be above sin, that they never do anything wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christians are human and as such, we sometimes stumble and do things we shouldn't, but we are forgiven. This is true even of the person who is trying to live a holy, Christ like life.
Praise God for his forgiveness and mercy!
Thank you for a wonderful explanation of your beliefs.
:)Sunny
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Nov 07 '02
9:53 am PST
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Re: While I found (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Thank you for stopping by! I'm glad you enjoyed the review.
What happens in my church if someone breaks the rules? Well, that's a tough question to answer and it does seem to me you're asking a specific question rather than a general one.
Really, the church doesn't do much of anything. We are, after all, adults. There are exceptions made when someone is in a leadership position. If they are setting an example that is contrary to the teachings of the church, they might be asked to step down. For the most part, though, sin is between God and the sinner.
As for the specific question about pornography, I would also point out that there is a difference between pornography and erotica. Heck, there is an entire book of the Bible that is most accurately classified as erotica, so a church must be careful before it bans it, eh?
Thanks again for your comment,
Bridgette
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Aug 23 '02
7:37 pm PDT
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Lindsey! (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
It was a pleasure meeting you too! I hope we'll get to see each other again next year.
Your church in Oklahoma sounds very much like the one I grew up in. It's easy to get nostalgic about it, isn't it?
Thanks for your comment.
Bridgette
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Aug 23 '02
7:34 pm PDT
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Wonderful essay... (Reply to this comment)
by littlelotte
Though I don't attend anymore, nor do I consider myself a Nazarene now, I pretty much grew up in a Nazarene church in Oklahoma and am proud to say that I did. I started attending with a friend's family when I was about seven, and continued there until we moved when I was about 12 and a half. It was a wonderful experience, and from more conservative things I've heard about the church since that time, I think I must have attended a rather progressive church. I loved it for pretty much the same reasons you bring up in your essay, and it was a wonderful place to be.
On Sundays (and the members would come to the church for the entire day, having services in the morning, eating dinner together, fellowshipping in the afternoon and then having an evening service)
This has to be one of my favourite parts of your essay. My church (Twin Lakes Church of the Nazarene in Oklahoma) would do something similar about once a month, and it was usually my favourite Sunday of the month.
I was really glad to have stumbled upon this essay, as it taught me many things about the Nazarene church that I wasn't really taught when I was younger, and it's really given me a more rounded view than I've had before. There is still a part of me that holds the time I spent in the Nazarene church very very dear to me, and as I said before, I wouldn't hesitate to talk and tell about the time I spent with it. It was very special to me, and it will always remain so.
By the bye, it was great meeting you at the Shakespeare Fest opening weekend :-)
Lindsay
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Jul 31 '02
3:09 pm PDT
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Thank you for your essay. (Reply to this comment)
by frazzledspice
You've done a wonderful job of helping people understand your faith. I have only known two people who have belonged to the Nazarene Church. One was something of a fundamentalist; the other was elorraine, who had attended Eastern Nazarene College and was obviously very confused about lots of things.
I had a terribly mixed up view about the Nazarene Church until I read your essay and learned about its tenets and sense of ministry.
And I know that your son will benefit from the strong faith and commitment that you and your husband share.
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Jul 23 '02
5:09 am PDT
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Great (Reply to this comment)
by lkvanvoorhis
This was a great essay on your beliefs and the Nazarene doctrine - I thank you so much for sharing. I am always interested in learning about someone else's beliefs, especially in such a kind and caring way (as opposed to "my way is the only way").
I know what it's like when you marry someone of another denomination. I grew up Southern Baptist and married a United Methodist. They are very similar in many ways - but the doctrines and practices that I did not care for in the Baptist church did not apply to the Methodist church (Baptism and communion issues, differences in focus i.e. saving the world versus daily living and helping others, etc.). So, since we are living in my husband's home town, I didn't want to ask him to leave his church that he had attended for years, and where his father was now an associate minister. I joined his church and am very happy - but I still miss those good ole' gospel songs I grew up with! I think I got the best of both worlds!
Thanks again, I enjoyed it very much,
Kelley
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Jul 22 '02
2:27 pm PDT
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If I had a MH button . . . (Reply to this comment)
by ed_grover
you most certainly would get it. It's seldom that I read anything that explains so thoroughly and in plain English. This was excellent.
Ed
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Jul 14 '02
9:43 am PDT
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... (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Believer77:
You're welcome! I've always appreciated that there are so many different denominations--it allows all of us to worship in the way that we are called.
Father Kurt:
Thank you--that compliment is especially meaningful coming from you. I'm glad I found the right balance without letting my experience become too biased.
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Jul 01 '02
4:13 pm PDT
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Wow... (Reply to this comment)
by believer77
Thanks for informing me on the Church of the Nazarene. All Christians are part of the Body of Christ, and I'm glad to have discovered more of His flock.
Great review/essay. I'll be looking out for your work.
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Jun 28 '02
1:07 pm PDT
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Re: I was... (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Kate:
I always hesitate using the word "fundamentalism" because there are so many strong associations with that word. I think one of the reasons I find history so fascinating is that it helps me to understand the present. I understand why so many people choose to be fundamentalists even though they currently have a very bad rep. I tend to think that a lot of people would be surprised to learn how much they agree with the basic principles of fundamentalism if it were explained to them. Or, at the very least, how little they had to take issue with it. Perhaps the most controversial part of it is premillenial dispensationalism--doctrine having to do with the second coming and how it will take place.
Thanks for your comment!
Bridgette
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Jun 27 '02
7:34 am PDT
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Re: Well done (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Yup! Eastern Nazarene college is one of a network of colleges that are affiliated with the Nazarene Church. Others include Point Loma, Trevecca, Mount Vernon, Olivet, and Mid-Atlantic. (There are actually several more, but those are the ones that pop to my head immediately.) The first one was Point Loma and was founded by Phineas Bresee and others within a decade or so of the denomination's founding.
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Jun 27 '02
7:30 am PDT
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Re: Wow (Reply to this comment)
by Redlass
Victoria:
Oh, fasten your seat belt, these are the kind of questions I love answering and discussing (religion--despite the bad rap it gets--is a fascinating topic to discuss).
>>I'm curious as to how you and your husband handle church matters - do you each go to your separate churches on Sundays?
This is something we are still working out. For a while, we tried alternating churches each week. We really prefer to go as a family and we want to show our son that we support each other. We also want him to make his decision based on the precepts of the faith, not out of a desire to please one or the other of us. Right now, we're considering another option. The services at the Nazarene church end at 12:15 and the Catholic Church we've been attending has a Mass at 12:45. So we may try attending both each week.
>>How do you approach the doctrines of your different faiths in family matters, such as infant baptism, entertainment, etc.?
There are actually fewer differences than one might expect and we stumble through those differences the best we can. Infant baptism is something Nazarenes allow, but do not encourage. We see no harm in it, even though we don't see any real benefit either. It is a symbol and it is a symbol of something each person must make a personal decision about after they reach the age of responsibility. So for baptism, I said I would do nothing to hinder him being baptized as an infant, but that my husband would have to make all of the arrangements.
Entertainment is actually fairly easy also because both my husband and I spend a lot of time involved in live, community theater--something both faiths accept and encourage.
We have met a lot of resistance from people who don't feel it is possible to raise a child in both faiths, but we smile, nod, and muddle on.
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Jun 27 '02
7:28 am PDT
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I was... (Reply to this comment)
by mattygroves
...completely unfamiliar with this faith before now - and now I am quite familiar. Wow.
I'm honest - I'm not religious. But given that you've called this (or that it can be called) 'fundamentalist', this is not the type of unforgiving and unaccepting fundamentalism that is usually associated with that word.
Very thorough, well written and stereotype destroying essay - thank you!
Cheers,
Kate
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Jun 27 '02
7:10 am PDT
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Well done (Reply to this comment)
by LifeStar
I heard of the Nazarene church before. One of my buddies goes to Eastern Nararene college (don't know if it's related), but your article was very insightful. Thanks for the info.
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Jun 27 '02
6:02 am PDT
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