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Re: Re: Re: Re: Misguided and simplistic assessment (Reply to this comment)
by jetaero
Hi again, warriorx...
Yes, I also see that Jedi II is on the Mac. That's nice to know...
Regarding MS Office, the issue is not whether one would buy a Mac just for MS Office but rather of one should buy a Mac without it. For myself and many others, the answer is a pretty firm "no".
AppleWorks is a nice little suite, but that's not really the issue. Office is the standard and not having full 2-way Office compatibility is a liability these days.
Regarding the mouse, I'm still using the same mouse that came with the Dell I bought 4 years ago - a Logitech 3 button, scroll wheel mouse. It's not even optical, but there must be something magical about my mousepad because I've never even had to clean the ball and it works great.
Spending $20-50 on a mouse is not normally a big deal to me if I really like the mouse, but in the case of a Mac, this is $20-50 on top of the several hundred to a thousand bucks that I already paid as a premium. Add to that the fact that all the third party mice are designed for Windows PCs and do not resemble an Apple mouse, and the fact that OS-X has less extensive context menu support, and you end up with a disappointing issue.
On VirtualPC, do iMacs have L3 cache? I can't even justify the price of an iMac, let alone a G4 or G5. As far as RAM goes, memory is pretty cheap these days, but I keep reading reports that OS-X doesn't work well with a lot of RAM that worked fine with OS-8. Buying 500+MB of overpriced Apple-branded RAM would cost a mint.
Also, memory is only part of the issue. Windows and Windows software simply can't run as fast in VirtualPC as they can natively on an Intel PC. The software simply isn't optimized for that. And it is generally acknowledged that the VirtualPC environment is rather unstable and doesn't support many apps.
And considering the tiny and non-upgradable hard drives that come with iMacs, combined with the fact that you can't replace them, this is another sticking point.
VirtualPC really doesn't appeal to me at all. If I buy a Mac, it will have to serve my needs without it...
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Jul 16 '03
9:31 pm PDT
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Re: Now now gentlemen... (Reply to this comment)
by jetaero
First of all, iBen, thanks for the civilized and honest reply. :-)
It's nice to see that there are at least some decent games for the Mac which might appeal to me, though I think we're in agreement that the Mac is not the ideal gaming platform - not by a long shot. It has nothing to do with technical inferiority, but simply a question of economics and market share for game developers, which are often relatively small companies.
Regarding Office, I too have been hearing lately of special offers on Office for Mac. If they can offer it for $200 with the purchase of a new Mac, that eliminates the problem entirely. But I still don't understant why these offers are so "special" and why they don't negotiate to make them standard. I think it would go a long way to reassuring prospective Apple buyers.
While third party productivity suites are available, and I realize that they may be more than adequate for the needs of students or home users, the fact remains that MS Office is the de-facto standard. Anyone running, working in, dealing with, or buying from businesses will frequestly find themselves needing to exchange Office documents with others. Dealing with limtations, formatting issues, and compatibility problems is something best avoided at all costs.
On the mouse, unfortunately no, there was no new mouse. :-P On top of that, I was a little annoyed by Steve Job's presentation of the G5, which I thought was wildly misleading. Sure, it's a nice and fast system, but bragging about test scores under rigged conditions with Windows PCs that weren't running Windows is unfair and grossly dishonest. Those test results do not even remotely reflect the real world performance that anyone will actually realize. I also liked the old G4 style better - aesthetically, as well as from a practical viewpoint as the new case doesn't seem as easy to access.
I just hope they do't plan to phase out the G4s. They should lower their prices to make them more competitive with PCs, leaving the G5s at the high end.
Context menus? I have used OS-X and I can see its context menus using the usual keyboard/mouse button combination. But these context menus, in the OS or in the basic apps I've used, don't seem nearly as extensive as those in Windows. The Mac OS seems to rely more heavily on arbitrary keyboard shortcuts rather than on context menus. This is something I've noticed in Adobe apps for Windows, which seem to carry over many such Mac-centric interface annoyances. Personally, I dislike the less intuitive interface, which must be compensated for by memorizing keyboard shortcuts that don't work anywhere else.
I'm glad you see my point about the cost issue. But even if you set aside the cost of migrating applications, Apple hardware is still very expensive. The only Apple systems that currently come close to offering me an acceptable combination of price and features is the 17" SuperDrive iMac. But its slow processor and limited upgradability spoil the deal.
Moving to a G4 PowerMac, the price instantly climbs by at least $500, and I can't even get a widescreen 17" display. The smallest standalone widescreen Apple display is the insanely expensive 20" model.
I'm going to have to move up to a higher tax bracket before I buy a Mac...
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Jul 16 '03
9:16 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Misguided and simplistic assessment (Reply to this comment)
by warriorx4
"Half-Life is NOT my life, (for that matter neither is gaming in general) but it is by far my favorite game. That notwithstanding, there are other sgames in the same genre that I also greatly enjoy, such as Jedi Knight II. But I AM fussy about games and I will not be satisfied with anything below this level. "
Sorry, I worded that wrong. Kind of sounded offensive, which was not my intent. By the way, Jedi Knight II is available for the Mac.
"I only like intelligent and interesting FPS games with excellent graphics, storyline, and gameplay. Mindless, multiplayer shoot-em-ups like Quake don't interest me in the slightest. And neither do puzzle games or role playing games."
If you like the Tom Clancy shooting games, they're available as Ben has pointed out below. Halo for Mac is coming out almost simultaneously (I think like a week delay?) with the PC version.
"I need full, transparent, and effortless compatibility with MS Word and Excel files and features. From what I've read, there is no real solution on the Mac platform other than MS Office. The others do not have full file compatibility or the same feature sets. There have been rumoprs of Apple developing a full-blown office suite of their own, but that's only a rumor, and I think something like that could have dire consequences for Apple's shaky but important relationship with Microsoft"
Shaky indeed. But Ben pointed out the discount on MS Office once you buy a Mac. Of course, who would buy a new Mac just for Office? AppleWorks can save documents in Word format. But it can't read it. Well I just discovered something interesting on the internet. I recently got a "plug-in" for my OS so that Word documents come out clear for all word processing applications on the Mac.
"Yes I know. But 1) that adds to the Macs al;ready high cost, 2) no third party mice have the "Apple look" so aesthetics will take a hit, and 3) the OS interface itself is what lacks robust context menu support. Many common functions are not offered via context menus and do require a trip to the main menu."
I bought my Logitech scroll wheel two button mouse for a little over $20. If you would spend more than that, then that would mean you would've replaced the mouse that came with your PC anyway.
"I don't think it's fair to suggest VirtualPC as a magic bullet, as is done so often, without mentioning its costs and limitations."
You got me there. Virtual PC is costly. Plus it takes up a large portion of your hard drive. But if you have L3 cache which comes with the latest Macs and a decent amount of RAM (about 533 Mb I'd say?) then it's really not that slow at all. I have not encountered any applications that did not work with Virtual PC.
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Jun 23 '03
8:14 am PDT
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Now now gentlemen... (Reply to this comment)
by iBen
Lets all put our heads on straight here and talk with some civility. I'll start.
Gaming is definitely not a strength of the Mac, but that is not to say that there are no Mac games..
Jetaero, you asked about an intelligent FPS shooter on the Mac... Deus Ex was a huge hit on Mac. Rogue Spear appeared on Mac back in the day as well. More recently, UT2003 shipped on mac as well, and runs rather nicely
Gaming shouldn't be a primary reason for getting a Mac. If you have a Mac, you can definitely play games on it, but games on mac are developed after PC versions most of the time because of the very nature of games. Its costly to the game companies to develop a 2nd version of the game for a smaller market, so some game companies ignore the Mac completely.
Office on mac is tricky, i admit. There are no rebates for this software at this time, but as recently as as 3 months ago, Apple and Microsoft had an "Office Party" rebate where the price of Office was cut $300 with the purchase of a Mac... this was a really good deal, and lets hope that Apple and Microsoft initate this deal again... this was the 2nd time that offer has been around, and i imagine it to be wildly popular.
There are free alternatives to Office on Mac... Open source alternatives like OpenOffice.org, if you're willing to deal with X11, work surprisingly well, though not transparent.
Macs don't edit all major motion pictures out there today... and they don't do the special effects of all movies... but with Apple's acqusition of Shake software, they'll definitely have more of a hand in it in the future.
About the mouse... wait till monday. Apple may design a new mouse.
I don't know how familiar with the OS you are, but Mac OS X does have very extensive context menu support. It varies from application to application of course, as with all things, but the right click does have many uses in Mac OS X... in previous versions of Mac OS, you may be more right about the lack of context menus.
Cost is definitely a concern. Switching definitely is very very costly for someone deeply entrenched in PC software, and unfortunately veteran mac users sometimes forget that. Switching is a huge feat... but i still think that for truly frustrated PC users, switching the mac, though initally sticker shocking, is an overall positive and empowering change.
I'd very much like to provide you with an intelligent dialogue, jetaero. If you'd like to contact me, email me at ibenson@mac.com and i will respond.
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Jun 21 '03
2:06 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Misguided and simplistic assessment (Reply to this comment)
by jetaero
"All I have to say is "Look and you shall find." I think your statements are guided by your lack of experience with Macs (3 days doesn't count. We're talkin using it like you would use your PC at home)"
I have been admiring and researching Macs for the last 15 years, so I think I'm qualified to formulate an opinion now and then. Regardless, you are 100% correct that one cannot fully understand all the pros and cons of a platform unless one is immersed in it for somelength of time, far beyoind a few minutes in a store.
But that's why I'm here. I want to share my views and discuss them - in the hope that they will be confirmed or disproven one by one. I am open to all feedback.
"Medal of Honor is in fact available for the Mac."
Yes, that is correct. I actually discovered that shortly after writing that comment, and I withdraw it.
"I do admit that Half-Life, one of the greatest PC games, is not."
Sadly, that is my all-time favorite game, and I am eagerly anticipating Half-Life 2, which is light years ahead of the original. I have yet to find anything else even on the PC platform that compares to the overall entertainment value of this game, and I doubt I will see a Mac-only game to rival it. But as always, I'm open to suggestions (as long as they're honest and realistic.)
"But there are a wide variety of substitutions for FPS (First Person Shooter) games. If Half-Life is your life...then by all means go buy a PC."
Half-Life is NOT my life, (for that matter neither is gaming in general) but it is by far my favorite game. That notwithstanding, there are other sgames in the same genre that I also greatly enjoy, such as Jedi Knight II. But I AM fussy about games and I will not be satisfied with anything below this level.
"MMORPGs like Everquest, Shadowbane, etc, have a Mac version. RPGs like Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, Diablo II have Mac versions also. RTSs like Warcraft III, Starcraft, Age of Empires II, etc are available on Macs. "
I only like intelligent and interesting FPS games with excellent graphics, storyline, and gameplay. Mindless, multiplayer shoot-em-ups like Quake don't interest me in the slightest. And neither do puzzle games or role playing games.
I'm really a "one genre man" when it comes to games. Even on game consoles, I'm only drawn to games like GoldenEye and Halo.
So again, what sort of intelligent, high quality FPS games are available on the Mac?
If the answer is none, that is by no means justification for not buying a Mac, but I AM trying to study this topic one issue at a time, and settle each one to my satisfaction.
"Same thing with Microsoft Office. It is more expensive but there are more affordable substitutions that let you save files as a Microsoft Word or Excel document. Actually, Apple just made a nice alternative for PowerPoint called Keynote. And for word processing I use AppleWorks."
I need full, transparent, and effortless compatibility with MS Word and Excel files and features. From what I've read, there is no real solution on the Mac platform other than MS Office. The others do not have full file compatibility or the same feature sets. There have been rumoprs of Apple developing a full-blown office suite of their own, but that's only a rumor, and I think something like that could have dire consequences for Apple's shaky but important relationship with Microsoft.
If I'm wrong about features and full file compatibility, feel free to correct me.
Again though, why no discounts on Office for Mac?
"Well yes, I was talking about CG movies. Animated movies. Basically every single Disney movie. "
I thought the implication was that the Mac platform was THE indsutry standard for movie making and editing in Hollywood. That's not quite accurate, so I just wanted to clarify...
"I just saw a product in a MacMall magazine that will transfer all of your Windows files into usable Mac files. You don't lose your email address book, your documents that you have saved, or your bookmarks/favorites list."
I wasn't really worried about that.
"You can easily purchase a USB two button mouse with a scroll wheel and it'll work just fine on the Mac. "
Yes I know. But 1) that adds to the Macs al;ready high cost, 2) no third party mice have the "Apple look" so aesthetics will take a hit, and 3) the OS interface itself is what lacks robust context menu support. Many common functions are not offered via context menus and do require a trip to the main menu.
Again, this is not a fatal flaw - just one of many small but cummulative drawbacks.
"Yes, money is the main factor in the decision making process. In fact, many of my friends have said that they would've bought a Mac if their budget would allow it."
I'm not a miserly person, and I often search for a better product for a little more money rather than a "good enough" product at a slight savings. Therefore, I am precisely the sort of person who's willing to pay a little more for a better product. But "little" and "better" and the key words here. :-)
I can't seem to rationalize paying a LOT more for something that is a lot better in a few ways, only slightly better in other ways, and significantly worse in others.
So far, my research has lead to the conclusion (though a flexible one) that Macs are outstanding for some uses and worth the extra money if money isn't a major factor for you.
But considering the rapid obsolescence of any computer, paying several hundred to a thousand dollars extra for a Mac seems unjustifiable for anyone who has to look at the price tag.
"If all else fails, you can buy Virtual PC, which is a Windows emulator. You can use all Windows software this way."
This is the sort of suggestion that bothers me sometimes, because it paints a deceptively rosy and imncomplete picture. VirtualPC costs $200, plus another $100-200 for the Windows license, and requires dedicating a substantial amount of hard disk space exclusively for the Windows OS and applications. On top of that, it doesn't work with all Windows apps, and even for those that do, it is very slow and unreliable.
I don't think it's fair to suggest VirtualPC as a magic bullet, as is done so often, without mentioning its costs and limitations.
"Therefore, I'm afraid you are the one misguided."
I may be. But as I said, I prefer to tackle this one topic at a time, and so far I have not been successful in finding any positive solutions that I might have previously overlooked. Except for that one game that I was unaware of, I was right about games. I was right about Office. I was right about the mouse. And I was right about the extreme price differences.
Believe me, nothing would make me happier than to leave one of these discussions having been proven completely wrong - since I would love to get a Mac. But unfortunately common sense dictates otherwise.
" Feel free to lash back again. "
I don't want to lash anyone. I just would like this information to be more easily available to all prospective buyers, in an honest and complete fashion, without the usual bias and all-important omitted details.
It would save me a lot of time and frustration and could save some people from making an expensive mistake.
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Jun 19 '03
2:02 pm PDT
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Re: Misguided and simplistic assessment (Reply to this comment)
by warriorx4
All I have to say is "Look and you shall find." I think your statements are guided by your lack of experience with Macs (3 days doesn't count. We're talkin using it like you would use your PC at home)
Medal of Honor is in fact available for the Mac. I do admit that Half-Life, one of the greatest PC games, is not. But there are a wide variety of substitutions for FPS (First Person Shooter) games. If Half-Life is your life...then by all means go buy a PC. MMORPGs like Everquest, Shadowbane, etc, have a Mac version. RPGs like Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, Diablo II have Mac versions also. RTSs like Warcraft III, Starcraft, Age of Empires II, etc are available on Macs. I'm not sure about puzzle games and such cuz quite frankly, they don't suit my taste but I assure you that we have the titles that the PC world has or we have adequate substitutions.
Same thing with Microsoft Office. It is more expensive but there are more affordable substitutions that let you save files as a Microsoft Word or Excel document. Actually, Apple just made a nice alternative for PowerPoint called Keynote. And for word processing I use AppleWorks.
Well yes, I was talking about CG movies. Animated movies. Basically every single Disney movie.
I just saw a product in a MacMall magazine that will transfer all of your Windows files into usable Mac files. You don't lose your email address book, your documents that you have saved, or your bookmarks/favorites list.
You can easily purchase a USB two button mouse with a scroll wheel and it'll work just fine on the Mac.
Yes, money is the main factor in the decision making process. In fact, many of my friends have said that they would've bought a Mac if their budget would allow it. As for gaming, I play games just fine.
If all else fails, you can buy Virtual PC, which is a Windows emulator. You can use all Windows software this way.
Therefore, I'm afraid you are the one misguided. Also, it was intentional that my article was simplistic because it was geared towards a more non-computer friendly audience. Because past that point, when you become attached to a certain system, you will become biased. Feel free to lash back again.
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Jun 15 '03
7:14 am PDT
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Misguided and simplistic assessment (Reply to this comment)
by jetaero
"The bottom line is quite simple. It depends on your taste. Nothing is better than the other overall."
No, it also depends on your needs and your budget.
"If all you do is browse the web, then the PC is for you. "
Not necessarily. PCs are complex and unreliable, and applications can be daunting for new users. A low end iMac would offer the same functionality, but with greater ease of use for a beginner, and much greater reliability. Plus the included iLife apps are so well designed, reliable, and easy to use, that any simpleton can quickly master digital audio, video, and other fun tasks on a MAc with no additional expenditure. Any non-geek will be happier with a Mac, provided they're willing and able to pay a small premium for it.
"Both platforms, both Mac and PC, have enough games to have your child vegetate after the addiction takes over. "
Hello? Show me any "real" games for the Mac, such as Half-Life, Medal of Honor, etc. They don't exist. If you've got a teenage hardcore gamer at home, the last thing they want is a Mac.
"The one advantage Macs have in this field is that the graphics are sharper than the PC if you own the right equipment. That means a good graphics card with a decent monitor."
All current Macs have at least decent graphics and excellent monitors. Unfortunately, there ain't any good games to play on them.
"If you use Adobe Photoshop or Dreamweaver MX everyday of your life then Macs are for you."
Outdated misinformation. I know two graphic designers - one works with Windows and the other with both Mac and Windows. All the big apps from Adobe and Macromedia are vailable on Windows with the same functionality as on a Mac. Plus in today's business world, designers have to interact more and more with non-Mac users, so familiarity with PCs, at least, is essential.
Macs are definitely better for video editing, both on the low and high ends.
"It is a known fact that most movies, if not all, are done with Macs"
Wrong, unless by "all movies" you mean "most movies created with CGI." For instance, Star Wars wasn't created exclusively on Macs. It was creted on Unix workstations. And most video editing is done with Avid, a non-Mac, proferssional, turn-key video editing hardware/software system.
" Most office work is done via Microsoft Office, which includes Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Microsoft Powerpoint. These are also sold for the Mac and in fact, the Macintosh version has more features and is more advanced than the PC version."
Yes, but Office for Windows only costs about $100 on a new PC, while Office for Mac costs a whopping $500 no matter what. Hate to break it to you, but prices are a major factor in the real world of business.
And on that note, migrating to a Mac will cost a small fortune compared to buying or sticking with PCs. Mac hardware is much more expensive than PC hardware. Software is not as diverse, and prices tend to be very high as well.
In short, Macs are great IF money is no object to you, AND you have little interest in gaming, AND you don't mind some quirks in the Apple world, such as the insistence on a single button, non-scroll wheel mouse.
Incidentally, iMacs may seem "almost" affordable, but they come with a hidden gotcha. They're non-upgradable. Can't upgrade the monitor, video card, sound card, or even the hard drive! Talk about planned obsolescence!
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Jun 14 '03
5:22 pm PDT
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