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This is a great advice piece (Reply to this comment)
by Joyfulgirlfan
that I wish I would have read back in September. It's funny - one day after finding out that I've been selected for a TR hat, I've started experiencing the phenomenon you describe here. There are those here that don't want others to succeed. Epinions is a crazy place.
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Jul 15 '06
10:18 am PDT
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Enjoyed reading this, (Reply to this comment)
by yakkowarner
This may be dated, but I enjoyed reading it. It is interesting to see how the site has progressed from different perspectives.
gj,
Alan
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Jul 05 '05
5:14 pm PDT
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Re: -------------- (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Jack--I think the prob is that the rates don't mean that much. Some crap stuff rates sweeping VH and some pretty darn good stuff will go H or even SH. Depends on who you are and who you know. When the same folks writing are the same folks rating, the conflict means some probs on that stuff. Back scratching and all. Mostly, I think the best stuff does float up. But not always. Just my spin on it. Also, EP benefits from the drama reviews that may not help anyone a bit but do bring in the masses. If it brings in folks, then it's all good I guess.
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Jul 21 '03
6:57 pm PDT
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Re: Thanks for some........ (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Well Phil--I always aim to please or tick off at least.
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Jul 21 '03
6:53 pm PDT
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Thanks for some........ (Reply to this comment)
by popsrocks
......enlightening info. Well done.
Phil
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Jul 20 '03
12:30 am PDT
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Re: $50/month! (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Jan--Might want to check next month. Betting I'm not looking at much after this. One thing though--you have more fun with it and take more creative chances. I play it (or have) mostly by the book. My guess it that you've had more than $25 more fun than I have any given month (-: On a more serious note, the money comes in from a very few select reviews. Most get pennies. Now and then I hit one that rocks. Those are high ticket items like the dehumidifier I had to get to suck the wet air out of the basement. Half.com and Ebay.com also hit high until better known EP folks wrote on those topics. If someone really wanted to make money, then they'd look at the high money makers on those lists in the Member Center and write on those products. I don't have many (or any) of them, but I lucked a few before they became biggies.
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Jul 18 '03
8:31 pm PDT
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$50/month! (Reply to this comment)
by jankp
Hey, twice what I make. Love your book reviews and your honesty. You make the site a better place!
Jan
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Jul 18 '03
8:15 pm PDT
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Re: ........ (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
PS--(I always forget some stuff I want to say). The beauty and health chicks get some rough comments. Though I don't hit that area often (usually just in health stuff now and then), the CLs in the category have been top notch. That includes bopsmom for any comment readers who don't know that. I'd also like to say that it's really gutsy for a CL to go out on a limb and back what I said about Online. She sure would not have to. It would be easier not to. That's what I'm saying about CLs who really should get more credit and a decent pay for doing an awful lot of stuff. CL is prob the most underrated volunteer work in the world when the person is doing a great job. My hat is off (well--duh--literally now) to the folks who can and will do it and really work for general members. EP did talk to me about that, and I can tell you that these folks are not getting a lot out of it. So, tks again bopsmom and others who have gone way beyond what anyone could expect.
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Jul 17 '03
8:15 pm PDT
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Re: ........ (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Thanks Melissa--I've had you on trust for eons and love your handle. The pic I've seen on your page reminds me of a girl I worked with in Raleigh who was a real sweetheart.
I never said much about the security episode, but I figured word did get around. I always hoped that saying something would help others to be a little more careful. One of the guys on site encouraged me to post the legal info at BlueHawq's Nest (not now active off site board).
A lot of my old reviews got canned as well. I cleaned out any that I thought gave too much location or work info. That included a lot, since I tend to talk like to a neighbor when I write reviews.
And, yes, I did stop reviewing for a while. The same guy mentioned above encouraged me also to go ahead and write. The worst (or close) had happened already. He said have fun but be real careful.
Online was my fav cateogory. I wrote a lot in that area before it was really a category. Still, they have two names--Online and Services or something. Can't rem without looking it up. I think they needed the stuff for that area fast and so did some odd things to help build it.
I hope you will hang in with Online. The sad thing will be if all the folks who care about that space of the site and do know the stores and know what people need/want to know pull out. Your name is another I would read an online coming down the pipe. There are several really good shoppers who share there, and when I find a truly helpful review in online, I jump all over it. While I know most of the online stores, there have been times I read about and shopped new ones like Djangos (2buzy) and a mag site with great prices (Moose). Those kinds of things really stick in my head as neither have been real recent reviews but did turn me on to places I continue to use.
I think Joubert has done a really good job in Online under horrible circumstances. I can imagine the pressure to rate up (from the site brass) when those selected tend to be ones that are real shoppers and know the real deal when they see it. All I can say is that I disagree strongy. If books had gone loose as some wanted, then it would be Amazon Jr. I don't even bother with the rah-rah book reviews there. They aren't all on target at EP, but a heck of a lot of them are.
Thank you for sticking to your guns. I've seen a few folks just rate that H up a storm in online and get hatted. The ones who do are the ones who tend to keep the fires burning in other areas where some members question the ratings like when product labels are pasted over. They just rate what they think will get hats, and I take the ratings of such members for what they are.
If EP wants to use tags on members, I think they should hire a neutral party and actually pay them more than 20 cents per hr to sort and make decisions and to work with those selected. There are several CLs that would make good candidates for such a position. There are several who would not.
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Jul 17 '03
6:16 pm PDT
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........ (Reply to this comment)
by bops_mom
Cyndi, I remember when you were being harassed. I believe you left for awhile then, too, didn't you? I'm still sorry the nut job went after you like they did and wasn't happy you left for a time over it (though I totally understood why you did). That whole episode prompted me to change some of the info I had not only on my profile page, but I also deleted some (ok, all) of the more personal type editorials I had posted.
I also wanted to say, I greatly enjoy your reviews because they're so straightforward. You have to read the most interesting books, not sure I could handle all of them - at least not in the quantity that you seem to be able to. :)
I wasn't too happy with everything that happened in Online, either. At first I did try to change my rating habits and style, but it just didn't work for me. I have lighted up some on my ratings over there, but not to the extent that I feel Epinions wanted/wants us to. If I lose my Advisor hat because of it, so be it. If I don't rate the way I feel I should then I feel I'm not really doing anyone a favor by being an Advisor - like I'm lying by saying "H" when the reviews was so less than helpful it was silly. I think I may still have at least one of the letters Epinions sent out to the Online Advisors.
A lot of the dealings with hats and the WOT does end up becoming much of a popularity contest when really, it shouldn't have anything to do with that. I also think having hats can get in the way of simply enjoying Epinions for what it is. It happens to me and when it does I have to back off for awhile.
For whatever it is or isn't worth to anyone - I'm glad you've been a member of Epinions, I'm glad to have found you here and I appreciate your trustworthy reviews.
Melissa
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Jul 17 '03
3:29 pm PDT
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Re: Ok my turn :-) (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
TKS KRISTY! I would never ask any online hats to step up and back up what I said, but I sure appreciate that you did.
Online is a hard space to write and to be really helpful. There are very few writers who can nail that category. Kristy (2buzy) is one of them who does it. She's knows shoppping online in general, knows the stores she writes about, and includes tips to help shoppers looking at the specific store. For example, she noted that bookcloseouts does not always include a blurb about the book, but it's easy to click over and run titles through Amazon or B&N to double check before buying. That's the way to do it. When Kristy or Moose write in online, I know I'll get the info I need.
I do see why numbers are good for online, but they could get numbers with a simple rate scale of one to five. Then add the option to write a review. Don't tell me about the pillow unless it didn't come or it fell apart the first day and the site refused to talk about the bad pillow. I guess if they send the pillow to end all pillows, that would be OK to share too.
At this point, I avoid reading about online stores unless I know the writer and know I won't waste time clicking. I'm on dial-up and pages take a while to load. I'll wait for a review and then get the most useless sentence or two rated H and even VH. I can't imagine any casual buyer being one bit impressed with the drivel being offered in individual useless pages of "I bought a bag of dog food. It came. My dog ate it. I think I will buy another bag from this place."
Meet & Greet could be neat, but we're talking about a community of faceless net folks here. The chance that they'd ever meet ANYWHERE near my home would slim to none. It looks like there could be some way to include more people by doing something high tech. They did try some of the chat discussions. A few folks came in with AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA comments, and a few monopolized the time. Now, it's moderated and includes a delay. It ends up being kind of like watching the test pattern on TV at 2 a.m.
The hat and little EP doll was nice. I wish members had not posted that up that they were coming before they did. Also, that excludes any writers not hatted. I doubt they could send them to all writers, but they could maybe send that random to a few who write good reviews.
I did read a "happy" book once. I promise (-: The two big boxes of books I bought from bookcloseouts includes those sad books girl. Maybe that's why they are priced to move. There are some really good ones, but they are heavy reading.
It would probably be shocking to know the kind of time some members spend. I rem long ago right after I joined where some chick said that she spent at least 4 hrs a day 7 days a week on EP. That blew me away. I couldn't and still can't imagine it.
I could make a whole list of people who have made my life better with EP in various different ways. Even though I don't mingle a lot at EP, the folks I have become friends with are more than just nodding "hi there" buddies. Kristy is one of my very favs!
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Jul 17 '03
6:42 am PDT
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Ok my turn :-) (Reply to this comment)
by 2buzy
First off, Cyndi is right about the online thing! We were emailed and after that didn't work, they started letting the SH reviews show up. This was done so that we would have more reviews for these online sites. But to me the quantity Vs quality is NOT a good thing! I would rather read a couple well written, well informed reviews about a site that a hundred of the "I ordered a pillow and it really soft and I like to put my head on it when I go to bed" that we get in online!
Seriously, you can read 50 online reviews and walk away knowing very little if anything about all 50 sites! A big problem is that they ask for only a 20 word minimum and many take this as a maximum ~ there should be a much higher minimum so that there might actually be some facts covered! Oh there goes that hat!!
Now on a more personal level ~ I have been able to stay away from the problems here other than the old revenge rater. On a car review I got a few helpfuls and when I asked the advisor why he gave me good reasons but I had also asked another person who was a advisor in a different area. Her reason? She tends to rate like the advisor does ~ no specifics, just she rated a Helpful because someone else did. LOL Talk about not thinking on you own! There is way too much of that going on here!
There is a lot of things on this site that need improving and there are some easy ways to do them. Maybe instead of taking things and incentives AWAY, they should work a bit more on giving back to the people who make this site work! If I ran my business this way, I wouldn't have one!
I think the meet and greet is a good idea ~ try the West coast, SEATTLE maybe, and I think more people will show up. BUT I think that they should be willing to listen to what the writers are saying and work on making positive improvements. Changes won't work if they are only made to accommodate the upper management. Well, unless there are enough of them to write after everyone leaves! Oh there goes my other hat!!
There are things and people here who are a joke. BUT there are also people on this site that I have grown close to ~ Cyndi is someone I am so fond of and would never have met in the "outside world" ~ and for that I am grateful. I always enjoy reading their reviews (although I feel the need to push some "up" books Cyndi's way) and look forward to their comments.
So, I come to the site and enjoy the good and move on! Hell, if people really have that much spare time maybe they could spare me a little???
Kristy
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Jul 16 '03
9:07 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: for what it's worth... (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Wake up Tom. Love ya guy. You play it straight and never back off which I appreciate. Online went through some major changes. On board Advisors WERE most assuredly asked to lighten up. When some kicked a stink, EP decided to change the category (which is what some advisors suggested). So, you see the SH at Online now and not in other categories. I don't know where I can pull up anything to show you that to be true (I don't save all this paper stuff), but I'll stake my name on it. They did not outright threaten to "fire" any advisors for staying in mode on rating styles, but the pressure was there. When I realized that my way of operating did not mesh, I just pulled out. Jourbert was not the CL then, so don't give him a hard time about it. And, the ones that were CL then were (and are) great folks. Again, not a fault on CLs period. NO. I don't say this is true in books. They have always been pretty tough. And, I appreciate it too. I know Grace the best of the three and like her a lot. If we went head to head on rates, I may be grumpier than her. It would be a close one. Online? Check it guy. You'll find that I'm spot on if anyone will tell you the truth. EP does want anything UP there even crap. I bought, I liked, I come again.
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Jul 16 '03
5:06 pm PDT
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Re: Re: for what it's worth... (Reply to this comment)
by sleeper54
..
hey there again...
CyndiA said...
"I did that with Online A some time back, because I did not want to change my rating style and H or VH reviews that did not help me at all."
Hmmm. Selection/retention is supposedly based on past rating practices. With the expectations that those practices will continue. So I really don't see where the 'change part comes in.
I honestly believe I have not changed my rating practices since I was 'given a hat by gracef' (to quote fellow user mobiprof).
...tom...
"Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none." —William Shakespeare
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Jul 16 '03
4:42 pm PDT
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Re: Very interesting (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Tks Barbara--I do love the writing end of this place. I wish that EP centered more on that and less on some of the games. You're right though. Some of the dramas are . . . well . . . pretty dramatic. I could just imagine trying to tell someone around here about things that go on in cyberspace at EP. They would not belive some of this stuff.
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Jul 16 '03
11:02 am PDT
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Re: I have been around longer (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Grandgram--It was kind of a wild hair that prompted me to write this. And, I've added a bit over the last couple of days. I hope you'll consider posting your experiences, because I do think that the member center info is pretty skimpy. I know that I wish I'd known more along the way.
I was really sorry to see that your husband died this year (on your profile page). I'm late, but I did want to send you a cyber hug. I hope you'll find a great place to settle down. Texas is a great state. I lived there for a couple of yrs.
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Jul 16 '03
10:57 am PDT
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Very interesting (Reply to this comment)
by ifif1938
and informative..I too have tried to stay out of the politics of epinions but do read from the sidelines much of the heavy duty stuff that comes through here...I guess it's a morbid fasciation..LOL
I've always enjoyed your reviews and have learned a lot from them..
Thanks and keep them coming..
Barbara
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Jul 16 '03
10:05 am PDT
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I have been around longer (Reply to this comment)
by grandgram
and have written a review just like yours but haven't posted it as yet. I like to let them sit awhile to ripen, then I can add to it. It is when I get steamed about something then have to spout off. I have written my share in the past and they are still there. I never update or go back to change something, I just start over with a new one.
So many things you wrote about I have been there and back, lost one hat in a month in Home and Garden. That was a crock as I write mostly in non-fiction books. Although I tried to do as they wanted and wrote boring appliance reviews.
Nice to catch up on things here at epinions and see that many things haven't changed.
Letta/grandgram
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Jul 16 '03
7:53 am PDT
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Re: for what it's worth... (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Staysee--Epinions has never been up front about the selection process. They've also made changes over time.
The way it works now (from what I can tell) is that a computer program pulls up members who meet the basic guidelines which is tied to hits in a category. From what I can tell, it's much more likely for a person who writes a lot to make those numbers. That list then goes to the CLs who look the list over. They consider quality of the reviews for TR and quality of ratings and number and quality of comments left on other reviews. The personality and behaviors of any members who meet the guidelines on the computer selection are also considered. CLs pick the TRs and As but based on a list from EP. The CLs are picked by EP.
Once selected, an email goes out. If you don't respond, it's a done deal. The other option is to email back and decline. The hats can be turned back in. I did that with Online A some time back, because I did not want to change my rating style and H or VH reviews that did not help me at all. In one case that I know of, hats were taken away. In that case, I think (not sure) that EP made the decision.
I guess hats are tied to popularity on some level, but I've never been real popular with the top members at the site. Though I like several CLs, I don't know any of them really well. The ones is books and online have been very responsive when I've made contact about products and such and also emailed about the hat return.
Quantity is probably the key factor with quality being considered on an individual basis.
I'd also note that the CLs get very little for taking care of a lot of business on site. They also get stuck with many of the problems that the management really should address.
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Jul 16 '03
6:36 am PDT
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Re: ... (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
The only real problem was the one who stepped outside the net world but still hidden behind a stage name. Other things were just kind of funny and seem to come with the territory.
I thought you were older than you were to start with. Not many younger people "deal" like you do. I've picked up some great tips from your online pieces. Other folks who haven't checked you out will enjoy your work too.
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Jul 16 '03
6:20 am PDT
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Re: p.s. (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Brian--A lot of people have a lot of personal info up and never get popped for doing that. I don't think anyone expects it to be a problem. Just be careful.
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Jul 16 '03
6:15 am PDT
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for what it's worth... (Reply to this comment)
by staysee
I don't know much about you and don't need to..all I know is I've always enjoyed reading your reviews and will continue to do so.
About the hat thing...I guess I just don't get how that all works and I guess I really don't care. If it has to do with a popularity contest then I'm certainly NOT interested in having one.
staysee
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Jul 16 '03
4:44 am PDT
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p.s. (Reply to this comment)
by voxpoptart
Which i suppose means i should withdraw all the specific personal information i give on my site, except i've known for years that it's dangerous, and so far haven't run into problems, and oh well. We'll see.
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Jul 15 '03
9:19 pm PDT
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Since you've already got a surfeit of nice comments, (Reply to this comment)
by voxpoptart
I'll just stick with "Wow". An incredibly informative piece about an entire skulking Epinions underworld of which i've been largely unaware (and much of which i'll just as contentedly shelve near the back of my mind, but it was fascinating for now). I strongly support all your stated behaviors and biases, in regards to member behavior, and the few bits of advice you give that i can possibly comment on seem wise. Good show!
best,
- Brian
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Jul 15 '03
9:17 pm PDT
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Re: Enjoyed reading... (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Toni--You'd be a case in point where I was certain I had you on WOT cause when I see your name I know I like your stuff. I click over, and NOPE. Not on WOT. Doesn't happen often. But, it does happen. There was one old timer I wanted to WOT me so bad, but I would never dream of asking. This was in the pull down days of ratings. It was not on buttons. You had to pull down this thing and click. I meant to tag VH but hit H instead. He emailed to ask if I had any suggestions on that review. I told him I had WOTed him eons back, read all his stuff, and I'd never seen a thing he's posted that was not VH. It was a finger flip clear and simple. He emailed back and said that he also noticed an error. He thought he had me on WOT (and had read all my stuff for 6 months or so). It does happen. Glad you checked in chilliebrady. I must confess I always think of Brady Bunch (my fav TV show when I was a pre-teen) when I see your name. You don't write every day or two, but when you put something up, it's great. Even though I said the way to play it was to VH and WOT, I've not done that. And, I don't plan to change my basic way of doing things--other than to go "no titles."
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Jul 15 '03
7:15 pm PDT
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Enjoyed reading... (Reply to this comment)
by chilliebrady
I enjoyed reading this. You were actually one of the first people I added to my WOT (last year) because I find your reviews to be well-written and informative. I agree that people should write about what they want to write about. Life is too short to worry about petty nonsense. In any case, this piece was well-written and provided insight into the history of the site.
Thanks and take care!
Toni
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Jul 15 '03
6:49 pm PDT
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Re: Hang in there Cyndi! (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
I'm good Ron. I've just never had an outlet to say what I was thinking here. I thought about this today and decided that "YES" I did want to say this stuff. These were the things that I wish I had known long ago.
You were my fist big MH. I can't rem what product, but I know that I was untitled in the area and that other reviews came from titles. Those were cut and paste and not real experience reviews (or it appeared that way). I was impressed that you stepped outside the title box and said that you thought that I was on target. I prob still rank down low on the listings, but I do appreciate that you read the piece and could see that I knew about the product.
I also like your handle. I don't know if you even surf. But, that's a neat name.
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Jul 15 '03
3:55 pm PDT
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Hang in there Cyndi! (Reply to this comment)
by surferdude7
I know exactly where you are coming from!
Having friends like you has always helped me down the road.
Take care,
Ron
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Jul 15 '03
2:32 pm PDT
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Re: Cyndi... (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Lisa--I've always appreciated your info and comments about MS. Since it's considered a "sister" disease to lupus, that caught my eye when I first started seeing your work. I also liked an old photo that you had up long ago. It had kind of an angel quality about it--soft around the edges. It would prob be eye opening to know what other members lock in on huh? I always thought of you as that angel girl looking very serene in profile. I also appreciate comments you've made when the boys have had the usual kid ups and downs like when Caleb didn't learn to read on time. tks
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Jul 15 '03
11:33 am PDT
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Re: You know.. (Reply to this comment)
by CyndiA
Hi Summer,
I didn't know that comments were ever hidden. Since I joined up on the spot, I guess I never really experienced the site as a non member.
I get some off site emails . . . or I did. Since I pulled my email, obviously I don't now. The only warning I would give on email (for folks reading comments) is that it's a bad idea to list a personal email box. Get some generic box that can't be traced (hotmail etc).
The whole concept of consumers being able to talk to others who have purchased and used a product is terrific. That was something I really loved about the site. At some point, I may add contact info again. Right now, I'll just be an anonymous buyer of products sharing info that may or may not help.
You may want to check on the new account. I'm thinking that EP prefers to restore the old account vs. have members come back in under different names. It's been a while since I've seen that batted about, but I think a couple of members got tickets over that. Now that you've posted that in comments, someone could make a big deal out of it.
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Jul 15 '03
11:26 am PDT
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