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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fuzzily Acdemic, Perhaps . . . (Reply to this comment)
by metalluk
I think that, in the long run, you are going to find that Epinions . . . believe[s] in product rather than people. Product pays the bills.
No doubt Epinions is concerned with product sales; that's the reason they exist. It is people who buy the products, so there is no dichotomy between products and people. When we writers serve the needs of Epinions customers, we help them find products that they want, which stimulates sales. You've got yourself all worked up over an imaginary conflict.
The fact that so many people misuse or misinterpret The Lists is my point.
Yes, that is your point. Its your notion of "misuse" that I do not share and which, judging from the actual contents of the Best Film list, many other advisors do not share either. The inclusion of a variety of posts in the Top-Ten lists increases their value in my judgment. Readers can easily skip over the lists that do not interest them because the posters have exhibited excellent integrity in identifying the content of their lists in their titles. In my opinion, it is your restrictive concept of what the lists may include that threatens their value.
Both the letter and the spirit of the law are ignored, and the community is violated.
Wrong. The "spirit" that should guide the content of the lists is "what best serves the interests of the collective readership." The list I posted and the others to which I made reference will appeal to some readers; the others can easily skip past them.
You are AN ADVISOR, and you are supposed to teach by example.
Actually, that is precisely why I have taken the trouble to respond to your comments. Otherwise I would have just ignored your initial comment. I was concerned that if I let your comment stand unanswered, readers would be misguided by your excessively fussy and legalistic approach. I believe that Epinions is far better served when the corps of writers keeps in mind the fundamental purpose of the site and are guided by it in rating reviews: does the review serve the interests of those who come to Epinions looking for ideas and information about products?
We disagree.
Yes, I agree to disagree. I simply don't agree to let stand your rigid interpretation of list content or the inference that all hell will break loose if we take an inclusive view, based on the interests of our clientele.
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Feb 19 '05
8:53 pm PST
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Fuzzily Acdemic, Perhaps . . . (Reply to this comment)
by macresarf1
Okay, Metalluk, I think that, in the long run, you are going to find that Epinions prefers the "letter of the law" rather than the spirit, and, in the crunch, they believe in product rather than people. Product pays the bills. We only provide the fuel -- though they do have a nice concept in encouraging "community."
The fact that so many people misuse or misinterpret The Lists is my point. Both the letter and the spirit of the law are ignored, and the community is violated. You are AN ADVISOR, and you are supposed to teach by example.
But, pace, I shall say no more.
We disagree.
All the best.
[Macresarf1]
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Feb 19 '05
1:05 pm PST
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Thanks for the knowledge (Reply to this comment)
by PattyTherre
This was a very interesting read, both the actual essay/list and the comments generated.
I don't watch many movies so, to me, this was very helpful and quite interesting and I read it all and also went on to read the reviews pointed out.
Thanks for the knowledge you have afforded me.
Patty
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Feb 19 '05
1:50 am PST
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Useful Handy List... (Reply to this comment)
by vicfar
Although I disagree with pretty much all the Academy's decisions in the last 10 years. It is a bit sad to see mediocre movies like "Braveheart", "Kramer vs. Kramer","Titanic" and worst of all "Terms of Endearment" receiving awards. "Lord of the Rings" is the final straw.
Hollywood seems more interested in rewarding entertaining banalities than in looking for originality. Not that I ever really watched the Oscars, but these days I am especially happy I don't have TV.
Vittorio
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Feb 18 '05
9:49 pm PST
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Thanks (Reply to this comment)
by George_Chabot,  in Movies
for a very helpful gateway to all the Oscar winners, in one handy list, and the several nice mentions, bud! Very good concise descriptions of each film also. Kudos!
Like JankP below said, I too cringe at some of the winners! Great job!
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Feb 18 '05
3:45 pm PST
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Re: Re: Re: Fuzzily Acdemic, Perhaps . . . (Reply to this comment)
by metalluk
Sorry you took my well meant advice personally.
I didn't and don't take it personally. I just disagree with your advice and general pickyness.
I shall continue to stand by my belief that "words have meaning,"
Most likely. But that only leads to adhering to the "letter of the law" rather than the spirit of it. I believe that it is much more fruitful to be guided by the basic purpose of Epinions -- to serve those who here looking for guidance -- rather than obsessing about the precise meaning of a category.
I note that on the first page alone of the Ten Best Film category there are reviews for Ten Favorite Period Fantasy Movies, the Top-Ten Sci-Fi Flicks, the Top Ten at Not Being Enjoyable in Any Way, a King Arthur List, and a Dumas List. On page two, there's a list for Best Sequels and another for Best Lines. There's another that is a Top-50. Let me be clear that I personally applaud the presence of such lists because it adds variety to the category -- and thereby serves the interests of readers. Each of these lists (as well as my own here) clearly indicate the nature of the list before the reader even chooses to open it. Did you also rate all of those lists as either "Off Topic" or some other adverse rating? Are you the lone defender of a technical standard that many other advisors don't subscribe to?
Sorry, I believe in facts, and if I am mistaken, I try to say so.
Yes, and I believe in people -- the people that Epinions serves.
If you had been there at the time, I can assure you that there was a move to do away with Ten Best Lists, and Best Lists in particular to do with the Oscars.
I couldn't care less about the past history of conflicts at Epinions. I have always found the Epinions staff people to be both reasonable and polite. If they have any difficulty with any item that I post, I expect they will let me know and ask me to make an adjustment. I don't believe that you are authorized to present yourself as a spokesperson for Epinions, so your advice vis a vis the Best Film category is of little interest to me, especially because I believe it is contrary to what is best for Epinions, contrary to what is best for Epinions users, and contrary to the practices of many other advisors.
As you suggest, Epinions would never drop the lists now -- so long as the lists deliver what the customers expect.
That, my friend, is baseless speculation and a spurious argument. Fuzzy thinking, as you like to say. When a user opens a post clearly entitled "All 77 Winners of the Oscar for Best Film" they pretty much know what they will be reading. Those not interested will bypass the post, just as they now bypass the many other examples of technically "off-topic" posts that I cited above.
I can't believe, as an Advisor, that you don't know that there are nearly 25 videos covering Oscar Winners already in the Epinions data base
There are many things that I don't know about Epinions. Apparently, the Epinions staff isn't concerned with how thoroughly a user knows every nook and cranny of the database in choosing Advisors. I think that they're perhaps looking for flexibility and reasonableness instead.
As I say, as an old academic, I believe in facts. If that makes me "ridiculous," that's okay by me.
Well, that is unfortunate, because Epinions is about people more than facts.
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Feb 18 '05
3:30 pm PST
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Re: Re: Fuzzily Acdemic, Perhaps . . . (Reply to this comment)
by macresarf1
Fuzzily Academic?
[Did I really mean "fussily"? Maybe.]
And silly?
I plead guilty on all accounts, but perhaps that makes two of us.
Sorry you took my well meant advice personally.
[A bad sign, perhaps? Academically speaking?]
I shall continue to stand by my belief that "words have meaning," even in our time when the populace has been led to be confused by them, because they are often "code words." If allying oneself with the latter position, it makes perfect sense to say that "The Ten Best Movies Ever" becomes "My Ten Best Oscar Winners."
Sorry, I believe in facts, and if I am mistaken, I try to say so.
If you had been there at the time, I can assure you that there was a move to do away with Ten Best Lists, and Best Lists in particular to do with the Oscars. In part, it had to do with the manpower required to make changes in the categories, when the Epinions staff was cut from nearly 200 to well under a hundred, several years ago, at the time of the "dot.com bubble burst." Some of us worked very hard, under heavy criticism, to change minds (and to restore the "Ten Best Movies of 2002," though we were able to help bring it about only several months late).
As you suggest, Epinions would never drop the lists now -- so long as the lists deliver what the customers expect. It is that latter factor, which you seem to ignore.
As for your other assertion, I can't believe, as an Advisor, that you don't know that there are nearly 25 videos covering Oscar Winners already in the Epinions data base, only one of which has been reviewed. Here's one of them, which will lead you to the others:
http://www.epinions.com/mvie_mu-1053333
As I say, as an old academic, I believe in facts.
If that makes me "ridiculous," that's okay by me. I'm too old to change my stripes now.
All the best.
[Macresarf1]
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Feb 18 '05
1:13 pm PST
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Lovely work. (Reply to this comment)
by telynor, in Movies
Thank you for the kind mentions. I do like your listing here, and am now busy trying to get caught up on the stuff I missed. -- Telynor
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Feb 17 '05
8:40 pm PST
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Thanks... (Reply to this comment)
by pmills1210, in Movies
for the links to my reviews. There's a lot of good review reading with your links. Thanks for sharing!
Sincerely, Pat
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Feb 17 '05
5:08 pm PST
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Sideways (Reply to this comment)
by beckytcy
I liked Sideways a lot (thanks for the link, btw), but I feel that it doesn't really belong with the other four nominees. Not that I've seen any of the others, so I really don't know what I'm talking about, though!!
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Feb 17 '05
1:21 pm PST
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Re: Fuzzily Acdemic, Perhaps . . . (Reply to this comment)
by metalluk
All of this may be silly on my part
Yes, it is.
The basis for rating reviews is how useful the review is likely to be for the users of Epinions. I imagine that this particular review will be used over and over again by users. The evidence for that will come from the hit count that accrues over a period of time. You want, instead, to get hung up on the exact definition of a list, even if it means depriving users of a list that they will find useful. I'm afraid that you've lost sight of the purpose of the site -- to be helpful to users.
The other day, a reviewer posted a list of medieval films but was only able to come up with five. (How many of us could come up with ten?) It was a useful list but the reviewer was given poor ratings by several "old-pros" because his list had only five items rather than ten. I gave him a VH because his list of five will still be useful to epinions users interested in medieval films. Basing a rating too literally on the precise label of a category is basically anal-retentive.
I placed this review in the most appropriate category available and it will be a valuable list for many users. That's what should count rather than some excessively narrow adherence to rules.
Epinions will never eliminate the top-10 categories because they are one of the major gateways for users to product reviews. This review will generate hits for many epinions writers and, from that, product purchasing by users. I've taken a creative approach here that illustrates how we can all work together to increase the attractiveness of Epinions for users. Feel free to rate as you see fit, but your rating will simply look ridiculous when this review is used over and over again by Epinions customers.
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Feb 17 '05
12:22 pm PST
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Fuzzily Acdemic, Perhaps . . . (Reply to this comment)
by macresarf1
But I believe words have meaning. By rights, metalluk, I should have given you Off Topic for this list. I decided provisionally that, in the end, you picked the Ten Best Academy Award Movies as The Ten Best Movies of All Time. [An absurd notion, I suspect you would agree.] This conclusion is an additionally dubious one on my part probably because your expertise and heart seem to be with Foreign Films.
Although there have been bitter conflicts in the past over these perhaps silly distinctions, the Epinions guidelines are clear and explicit on what constitutes a "Ten Best List." People have lost hats in such battles over "following the rules," and others have been harassed for being one side of an argument or the other. No one can be sure, in the arcane grottoes of Epinions, but it is possible that the webmasters tried to put an end to ten best lists, at one time or another, for the trouble they caused.
All of this may be silly on my part, including the argument immediately above, except that you are an Advisor, and Lists of Best Movies are as lucrative to writers and as in demand from the broader readership as anything else in the category. If you as an Advisor do not uphold the rules themselves, who will.
Epinions loses to the competition if their categories mean nothing. So whether as an argument for principle and accuracy, for the customer buck (or penny, from another point of view), or an argument against a "permissive Epinions," this review should be rated Off Topic or Somewhat Helpful.
Because I admire many of your regular reviews, I give this a "gentleman's Helpful," and I hope you would take into consideration my well meant remarks, now and in the future.
Hoping to be at least Helpful, all the best.
[Macresarf1]
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Feb 17 '05
11:24 am PST
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Loved this.... (Reply to this comment)
by gaelkm, in Movies
...wonderfully comprehensive list. I am anticipating this year's Oscar's ceremony very much (more than in previous years). Thank you also for mentioning my "It Happened One Night" review!
~gael
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Feb 17 '05
9:11 am PST
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Re: ... (Reply to this comment)
by metalluk
Thanks, Pavel, for the correction. I've corrected the link in the review.
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Feb 17 '05
7:45 am PST
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Re: What are you wearing? (Reply to this comment)
by metalluk
I've seen fifty-three of them. All but three of the most recent fifty but only six of the oldest twenty-six.
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Feb 17 '05
7:38 am PST
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Oscar Winners (Reply to this comment)
by skbreese, in Movies
Wow, great job! Thanks for including one of my reviews. Your list is impressive as well. Best wishes. Sheila
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Feb 17 '05
5:01 am PST
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amazing (Reply to this comment)
by jankp
I haven't reviewed any of them, though have watched many and put them in lists. Some of them I cringed to see they won, hehe. Thanks for the compilation!
Jan
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Feb 17 '05
12:12 am PST
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... (Reply to this comment)
by Pavel21
Your link to Carl's review of Return of the King led to a review of Sideways. I realize the two movies are similar, but here's the proper URL...
http://www.epinions.com/content_122144722564
And I'm very surprised that you put A Beautiful Mind so high on your all-time list. I'm not sure I would put it that high that year.
Great stuff as usual.
--Pavel
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Feb 16 '05
11:03 pm PST
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What are you wearing? (Reply to this comment)
by trust12345
(Note-- that's a red carpet question).
A very handy resource, and thanks for the link to my Million Dollar Baby review. Just curious, since you are clearly a huge buff of the non-English lang films, how many of these 76 or so you've actually watched?
I protest ignorance of a great many of the earliest on the list...
-JS
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Feb 16 '05
10:42 pm PST
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