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Re: Re: Synergy (Reply to this comment)
by oldcomixfan
That's an excellent idea, Ash. Why not? No reason not to make it so, just include the appropriate medical code on the back of the license.
And thanks for the links.
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Apr 02 '05
5:30 pm PST
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Re: Synergy (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
There seem to be two primary factors that make this and other similar unfortunate issues so difficult to resolve....Communications: as in Schiavo not having the ability by all outward appearances
Lack of communication 15 years ago, was a bigger issue than in the last few weeks. In the presence of a living will or healthcare proxy, we would never have heard of Terri Schiavo. Indirectly, it was her inability to communicate in the present, that will help all of us make educated end-of-life decisions.
Technology: as in what has kept her alive by unnatural means for so long
The debate and issue is not how the food and water was being delivered, rather the decision to sustain life or not. Terri needed no more care than a newborn baby, or a senior citizen in need of elder care. In our society, if a person knowingly denies food and shelter to either of them, they go to jail. But Michael Schiavo was allowed to get away with it! Terri died because Michael Schiavo decided to stop providing care for Terri...plain and simple. You consider a feeding tube unnatural, OK, would you also consider a spoon unnatural? Millions of mothers across the world are feeding their babies with spoons. Senior citizens in elder-care facilities are being provided nourishment with spoons. Would you consider portable oxygen tanks unnatural? There are millions of people walking around with those. Where does it end?
It's inevitable that technology will advance to the point where people can communicate "telepathically" by realistic, logical, non-fictional means
I can just imagine that future Sprint PCS commercial....Can you sense me now? Can you sense me now?
What's done is done. How do we keep this from happening again to a bare minimum? ..... give us a link
Have all new driver's license applicants fill out an additional form for a living-will. They already have organ-donor choices listed on the back of my license. Why not my healthcare proxy choices! For anyone who does not have a healthcare proxy / living will, the process is quite simple.
Here is one website that allows you to create a customized living will document for a nominal cost.
http://www.legalzoom.com/legalzip/living_wills/lw_procedure.html
Here is another resource for learning more about healthcare proxies and living wills.
http://estate.findlaw.com/estate-planning/living-wills.html
Are you sure about the bolt gun, though?
In all honesty, the AABP does recommend exsanguination to finish the job. It still takes only a few minutes for Elsie's journey into the forever green pastures. Which is far preferable to me over Terri's 13 days.
President Bush is right in that we are a culture of life. If only we could control our barbaric tendencies :)
Nice one OCF.
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Apr 02 '05
3:19 am PST
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Synergy (Reply to this comment)
by oldcomixfan
Ash,
There seem to be two primary factors that make this and other similar unfortunate issues so difficult to resolve: communications and technology. Maybe there's a third or a fourth or a fifth or...factors, but this would have to be a very long comment.
Communications: as in Schiavo not having the ability by all outward appearances - the focus of the dilemma may or may not be conscious. No one really knows except her, and she's just not getting through, nothing but silence if she was/is conscious and suffering in some way. The mystery of it all only leaves people with getting subjective and emotional to the point of making it the media circus it has become - so lets all get mystical and project onto something we can't objectively know for certain {yet}.
Technology: as in what has kept her alive by unnatural means for so long to even make this an issue when in another day and age this situation would of taken care of itself at the very beginning because of no such technology being yet invented - just another sad, personal aria in the age-old symphony of miseries contrapuncting the fun times, ill-harmonically speaking.
It's inevitable that technology will advance to the point where people can communicate "telepathically" by realistic, logical, non-fictional means; and of course, new issues and controversies will go hand-in-hand with each advancement as the human element persistently injects "good" and "bad" into the mix. All that's said so far is nothing but rehashed cyberpunk that's been floating around for decades now, but it is stimulating food for thought {for me at least} with no limits.
What's done is done. How do we keep this from happening again to a bare minimum? Someone is probably working on the problem right now as this is being typed. You're the guy who obviously keeps more up to date on such cutting-edge cyberness, so you definitely know more than I do. {hint hint. give us a link}
Are you sure about the bolt gun, though? I've seen them in use on Holsteins dried-up and gone to pasture or the younger ones destined for the dinner table. And let me tell you, it ain't a pretty way to go - only a psycho like my second-grade teacher would think up so macabre a field trip, but it was either that or the Arctic Cat factory which we'd already toured a year earlier.
Regards
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Mar 31 '05
12:19 pm PST
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Re: Re: Re: Love ya Ash... (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Reminds me of a Jim Carey movie...
Damn, that bouncyrack lady is multitalented :)
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Mar 28 '05
11:46 am PST
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Re: Re: Love ya Ash... (Reply to this comment)
by drdevience
based on the assumption (as per the image below the statement) that you are talking out of your azz
Like that one do ya? Miss Katy made that for me. She's such a brat....
Doctard
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Mar 28 '05
9:18 am PST
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Re: sad case (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Jan,
but it sounds like she's not suffering and she'll be going to a better place.
You don't know that for sure! But I guess that is one way to make some sense out of all this nonsense. Still doesn't make it right :(
AA
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Mar 28 '05
8:54 am PST
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Re: Hi - (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Virginia,
I cannot help but think if there is a tiny scrap of Terri's brain that is functioning, it is saying "Please let me go - let me get out of here. Let me be with my God".
These are your thoughts, your emotions. Not Terri's! Hundreds of years of evolution has proven that life is resilient, that a living organisms will adapt to almost any circumstance in order to continue living and propagate themselves. Brain scans have been proven wrong before. Again, all I'm trying to say is that, in the absence of a health care proxy, Terri's own wishes might never be known. Today we know more about outer space than our oceans. We know more about our oceans than our brains. Most modern medicine, is educated guesswork at best. Our understanding of the human body particularly the brain is minimal. We cannot and should not base life & death decisions on something which is still a mystery to science.
I think that we should err on the side of caution in this case.
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Mar 28 '05
8:50 am PST
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Re: I think... (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Nongsternator,
That was a long hiatus from writing. How have you been?
Ashok
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Mar 28 '05
8:27 am PST
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sad case (Reply to this comment)
by jankp
I'm glad you wrote this, but it sounds like she's not suffering and she'll be going to a better place.
Jan
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Mar 27 '05
8:58 pm PST
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Hi - (Reply to this comment)
by Granniemose
I have to commend you on the beautifully written essay, and the heartfelt agony you feel by watching on TV and knowing that a person is dying.
I commend you and appreciate you - but I do not agree with you at all. The cat scans show that there is nothing in Terri's brrain. She is brain dead.
She cannot turn her head, or open her fists. The tape showing her reacting to her mother were cut from three hours of stedy taping. She wasn't responding, but making the same smiling reflex and gutteral sounds she has been making for eleven years.
Court after Court after Court have heard the testimony and all came to the same conclusion.
Even after the all powerful President intervened and congress was called into a special session, the highest court in our land refused to intervene. For the first time in five yeas I have regained a grudging respect for the Supreme Court. I cannot help but think if there is a tiny scrap of Terri's brain that is functioning, it is saying "Please let me go - let me get out of here. Let me be with my God".
Terri's skin is not pealing, according to the latest reports, nor is she bleeding from any orifices. She is highly medicated, and laying there in peace.
I undestand the parents wish to keep their daughter alive, and I also understand Terri's husband.
Witnesses have stated that she did not wish ever to be kept alive, and the judges who heard their testimony found them creditable. The saddest thing in my opinion are the people who have taken it upon themselves to storm the hospice facility, and disturb the forty other patients who are there waiting for their end to come. Their visitors have to run the gauntlet of the complainers when they visit their loved ones.
I do understand your feelings, though, and it may be that I am wrong. I applaud you for speaking out.
Virginia
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Mar 27 '05
5:01 pm PST
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Re: Love ya Ash... (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Dear Doctard,
I think your "serious" healthcare proxy statement can be successfully challenged in a court of law, based on the assumption (as per the image below the statement) that you are talking out of your azz.
Ash... Esq
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Mar 27 '05
10:53 am PST
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Love ya Ash... (Reply to this comment)
by drdevience
...but I think my feelings are laid out pretty clear on my profile now.
heh.
I might also point out that every court that has seen the evidence of Terri's wishes has ruled on the side of the husband... he is/was *not* the only one who heard her wishes. If he is guilty of anything, it's allowing the extraordinairy measures in the first place 15 years ago....
Doc
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Mar 27 '05
9:29 am PST
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Since I'm in Florida on vacation I am watching this (Reply to this comment)
by jo.com
24/7. Hoping not to get into a dissertation which I could but as Tom pointed out, I sure don't have the energy for it I must make a couple of comments.
1. The only, only, only reason this mess is happening is because she had no living will. The courts, right or wrong, got involved because Michael and parents disagree. If they agreed we'd never know her name. I asked my daughter who is in med school her opinion. We didn't have long to talk but her words "Feeding tubes are taken out by the thousands every day. We just don't hear about it."
2. The other night watching TV someone who is on the side of not putting in her feeding tube was asked if he would want to die az she is dying. (My uncle died the same way and was more cognizant than Teri. The reasons are too long to go into here, but he was heavily medicated and felt no pain. If you disagree shoot yourself up with a whole bunch of morphine and let us know how much pain you feel and that is considering we know for sure you are capable for feeling pain.)
The response to the above ? was no he would not. He would want Dr. Kevorkian to come to his aid. BUT he went on the ONE person who could help him is in prison for doing just that. He continued how awful is that. The person who could end her life that the courts decided (right or wrong) was what she would want in a humane way is in jail.
That's it. I can't come back though I am sure the comments were interesting. That was all the energy I have left to expend on this case. jo
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Mar 27 '05
8:45 am PST
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Re: It's hard (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Thomas,
"but in the end I do believe he is doing her a favor."
BS! Should a mother with an unwanted baby, allow it to starve to death? He would have done her a favor if he had hit her over the head with a giant wooden mallet, 13 years ago. Instead he is torturing her to death. Don't you understand that nobody wants Terri's death on their hands! Michael is simply walking away from the responsibility for his wife's welfare. He is forcing an invalid person to fend for herself. Such behavior is outlawed even during war, by the Geneva convention. So why should we allow it in our personal lives?
He is willing to stand aside and let her die. Instead he should stand aside and let people that are willing and able, to care for Terri.
"I am appalled by politicians abusing this case for political gain."
Remember, politicians and laws are merely a reflection of us as a society. Everyone has an opinion about this case. Politicians are simply the bullhorn of our own opinions.
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Mar 27 '05
6:12 am PST
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It's hard (Reply to this comment)
by theuerkorn
... to think about death when you're in your 20s and seemingly good health. Things like that are dramatic and touch all of us, but they will never be avoided unless you make it a federal law that people have to submit their living will along with their first tax return.
Anyway, how can anybody claim to know Terri's wishes? I mean it's not uncommon for people to think about death with sudden but relatively 'minor' life changes like loosing eye sight. Now throw all handicaps you can think of in one pot and see how many people would would still want to live with it. I mean 15 years, and virtually no expert that actually examined her gives her any chance for a recovery? I just hope for her that her mind is not what her parents think it is ... working. Can you imagine the torture to have absolutely nothing else to do than think about your situation?
I am appalled by politicians abusing this case for political gain. Morals? Yeah right. I do somewhat understand her parents, though it's beyond my comprehension why they would want to prolong this state much longer. Her husband may seem cruel, and I think his reason sounds a little weak when just looking at the statement alone (as most do), but in the end I do believe he is doing her a favor.
- Thomas
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Mar 27 '05
5:25 am PST
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Re: Hmm.... (Reply to this comment)
by sleeper54
..
heymrdj2k/Matt said...
"Why must (politicians) feel the need to butt in on everything? Let the family make their decision, no matter what it is."
Ahh. But that is just the point isn't it..??
Who truly represents "the family"..? Who should make that "decision"..??
he continued...
"Being in a persistent vegetative state is no sort of life to live. I would want to 'pull the plug' if I ended up like Terri Schiavo."
I am not sure what your wishes have to do with what might be appropriate in this case. I am sure many do not share that same belief.
he finished strong by saying...
"I believe that everyone has the right to die - in peace."
Indeed they do. When they decide or their guardian (acting in their best interest) make that decision for them.
I am not sure that is the case here.
...tom...
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Mar 26 '05
11:46 pm PST
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Joan, Tom & Matt (Reply to this comment)
by aashok
Life is too precious, and death by starvation is too barbaric. Medicine has proven that the brain can adapt to trauma. No one knows what thoughts if any are going through Terri's head.
I think, when in doubt we should err on the side of caution.
Ashok
PS: Tom, I'm currently living with two cats and chronic respiratory disease. So it's fair to say that I'm already flirting with the grim feller in the black robes :(
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Mar 26 '05
6:26 pm PST
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hey there Ashok... (Reply to this comment)
by sleeper54
..
Oh boy. You may have started a rousing discussion here. Depends on how much energy anyone has left to discuss it once again.
you said...
"The sad answer most likely is lack of financial support."
Wrong. The parents and interested parties would surely be more than willing to pick up the financial burden. The main person demanding this 'final resolution' is the 'husband'. I use that term very reluctantly. He certainly is not living many people's idea of an honorable husband's life. Certainly not mine.
The previous comment suggests this 'final resolution' as a release from 'suffering'. But if she is indeed 'suffering' is that not a state of a live and viable person?
I am not the one to take the point for those who feel compelled to call this 'solution' what it is: murder. But I will certainly spark the discussion by seconding the sentiments/thoughts of your reasoned essay.
you also said...
". . .or at the least bring along 200 cats, so I can die from my allergies."
Given the 'wealth' of feline-lovers ( and owners! ) on the site ( as documented on my user-page ) I think a feline 'meet-n-greet-n-say-goodbye' could easily be arranged at your bedside.
...:smiliemoment:...
And a found quote that seems most apt.
...tom...
"Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome."
—Isaac Asimov
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Mar 26 '05
12:16 pm PST
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