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power to the irish! (Reply to this comment)
by yippeskipee
gotta say i agree with you, not many sterotypes offend me and humors good even if it is a little mean at times. so if your taking on steve, dammit your taking on me too!
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Jun 06 '05
7:43 pm PDT
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Never knew-- (Reply to this comment)
by gaviidae
---that Asians took offense at being called Orientals---and still find it strange---but thanks for the explanation. I've never minded being referred to as Scandinavian---if it wasn't preceded by some stereotyping adjective---even though the word is more often used to describe a style of furniture!
We live in a culture that is racist, whether we admit it or not.
I'm sorry, but that sort of blanket condemnation always offends me. There's no doubt that there are still individuals here who are bigoted and racist, but my belief is that they're a small minority. There is still a remnant or two of institutionalized racism---but my experience would be that it tends to be greatly exaggerated by some. There are great opportunities here for all.
This CULTURE, made up of many colors and ethnic groups, has done more than most to be fair and just and to eradicate remaining vestiges of racism and it's effects. And that's how I feel about it!
There are many, many people here in the U.S. who believe that blacks, as a people, are de facto inferior because of their race.
A few, to be sure---but anywhere I've lived they are a small fraction---certainly not "many, many-"
That the class system now in place is only right and proper.
We live in a meritocracy, do we not? I would argue there is NO "class system," in the usual meaning of that term---because everyone of us is free to move to any strata we aspire to, limited only by our own ability and ambition. Of course it's true that some individuals have more to overcome than others. We aren't all born with the same advantages or with the same abilities. A major part of our motivation is to give our kids a better start than we had.
The whole crux, I think, is that in very general terms, white people do think of themselves--ourselves--as above it all. As the most civilized. As the smartest. As the most entitled to the fine things in life.
We think of our CULTURE and our NATION that way---Not our race or color. We are a culture and a nation of many colors and ethnicities that have evolved into a single new culture---the melting pot, OK---and it's a very civilized, and very just culture. You are attributing a set of characteristics to WHITES because they are WHITE, which strikes me as extraordinarily racist on your part, if you'll excuse that observation.
There's nothing racist in taking pride in the goodness and fairness of the multicolored, multiethnic culture we have built here---in my humble opinion!
And that's an honest expression of MY feelings on the subject!
Gavia
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May 29 '05
3:36 pm PDT
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Re: valid points. (Reply to this comment)
by s_trimble
I do agree with you. Some people do take license with their ethnicity to be offended at any little thing.
But the issue does have two sides.
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May 04 '05
4:41 am PDT
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Re: Oh I wish I had the mental energy (Reply to this comment)
by s_trimble
All my mental energy has been wasted trying to figure out whether or not you're being snotty. Ah well, i'm not that bright.
Anyway, the whole concept of one being able to disparage one's own ethnic group sort of illustrates my point--that it's the superior attitude that's offensive.
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May 04 '05
4:40 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by s_trimble
Doc,
Yeah, I agree. I mean that it gets absurd. I just think there's a middle ground, I guess. And also that people have a right to be offended at certain things.
--Steve
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May 04 '05
4:36 am PDT
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yo (Reply to this comment)
by underdawg
Hmm...I don't think all the power is in the listener. Is the speaker to take no responsibility for his...speech? I don't think this is a matter of black and white. Do I get offended when my non-asian friends call me a chink? No. Do I get offended when someone I don't know calls me that in a hateful way? Yes.
I wish we could all just see that they are just words and sling them back at 'em. But it's not that easy. Having being called a chink in a few quite hateful situations sours me quite a bit on the term. If youngchinq can take it and not be offended, all the power to him.
Do I think the Cleveland Indians are offensive? No. But what if I were an American Indian myself...I don't really know how I would feel about that caricature.
I don't think it is necessary to say African-American is offensive, because there is nothing wrong with "black". I don't believe in political correctness, but some of these words are used in ways that are just damn hateful.
But then again, I believe in freedom of speech.
In conclusion, this is a quite complicated issue and I am going to need some times to gather my thoughts...
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May 04 '05
12:22 am PDT
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Re: Re: You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by drdevience
I think we need to be aware of it. And aware of the things we say.
You may be surprised to find we are in agreement on that. The difference lies in the varying degrees PCness.
As Jo has so conveniently demonstrated, it tends to get to the point with some folks that it becomes absurd and if those folks had it their way, we would be able to say absolutely nothing. We would be reduced to not being able to even describe anyone to the cops at all without being named a racist. Every little thing is picked apart by folks like that and turned into some crusade or another.
Stephen, you were not the reason for this w/o, nor even was that comment section. It was something I had been contemplating for awhile now, but that bit and the ensuing emails to me got me off my butt. heh.
Doc
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May 03 '05
1:54 pm PDT
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Re: Oh I wish I had the mental energy (Reply to this comment)
by drdevience
BTW.. I think a song about 10 Little Drunk Irishmen would be funny as hell...
PaddyDoc
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May 03 '05
1:28 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by drdevience
give money to the likes of a show such as South Park?
Because it makes fun of the stereotypes, not the people..... you must have missed that bit while you were busy getting a good indignant fit going....
Jo... you are not the only one with a degree here... if you wish to try to bring a superior attitude to this, we can surely compare our degrees if you like. Did you see Howard's response in my main write up? He's Altecocker, by the way.. he's a Professor Emeritus with more degrees than any ten degreed people put together on this site... he wrote Soc text books.
ChucklingShrinkDoc
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May 03 '05
1:23 pm PDT
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Re: Re: You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by jo.com
I'm curious how you or anyone (please speak up unless this isn't the place for this discussion and as I've said about 5 times now I'm not sure I have the mental energy for it online) can watch, give importance, give money to the likes of a show such as South Park? jo
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May 03 '05
1:14 pm PDT
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Re: You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by jo.com
If I just may jump in here. I took an intense course in Racism during my graduate work. Perhaps that's where I learned the concept first. Perhaps not. But I learned it well then. It goes like this: I am Jewish. I can joke about my own religioun. Hey I'm a JAP. But can you? NO WAY. In the same way rappers use the N word easily but can I? no way nor should I. In general people (this is just the shortened version of political correctness) can make fun of themselves (though there is something to be said about role modeling but that's another soapbox) their religioun, their culture but not the other way around. Like it or not in 2005 that is what most experts on the subject would say. jo
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May 03 '05
1:12 pm PDT
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Oh I wish I had the mental energy (Reply to this comment)
by jo.com
as a "Jew" I believe the term was I got a chill just by reading that my religion was on the list. But of course it would be. People Jew me down and I take them on. I have asked people to leave my home, my office (when I had one) or removed myself in the presence of racist jokes. I finally got my gym to stop using the term sit "Indian style." I remember the first time I tried to explain why the song 10 Little Indians was an affront to Native Americans I was looked at like I was from Mars. Even trying to suggest to the person that they probably wouldn't like a song about 10 Little Drunk Irishmen (I know you said you were Irish.) she still didn't get it. Ok enough- off my soapbox. jo
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May 03 '05
1:07 pm PDT
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Re: You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by s_trimble
No, I don't think I did miss the point. Yes, the power is in the listener, but that doesn't remove the responsibility of the speaker. Your point, if I understand you correctly, is to 'lighten up.' Turn around the negative connotation of whatever word offends you, and make it a positive. I know Youngchinq, and admire him greatly. But he's not the rule. He has more power, self-control, and intelligence than most people.
Look, I'm not advocating the sanitization of the language. I listen to Howard Stern. I love South Park. But let's not deny that this nation oppresses people. Usually people who have darker skin than Europeans. It's the way of human nature. I think we need to be aware of it. And aware of the things we say.
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May 03 '05
1:00 pm PDT
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You miss my entire point... (Reply to this comment)
by drdevience
Itis not my intention to blast anybody at all, but try to get some enlightenment and make folks see that this:
In other words, it's not the words. It's the meaning behind them.
Just ain't true. I don't care what the speaker means, it is the listener which gives weight to the term. If the listener refuses to rise to the bait, then all the power of the speaker is taken away.....
And speaking of how 'Orientals that you know' feel, have you met our wonderful writer here on Eps? YoungChinq? He has taken the word Chink and used it to his own advantage, which takes all of the negatives out of it for anyonwe who would try to use it against him.. he'd laugh in their face knowing them for the fools that they are and go on....
Doc
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May 03 '05
12:44 pm PDT
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