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just curious (Reply to this comment)
by didyouforget
Who's the true winner whose name starts with an "s"?
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Oct 01 '11
8:25 pm PDT
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Re: FOR YOU UNEDUCATED, UNINFORMED HIP-HOP "REVIEWERS" (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Interesting.
You took two lengthy, elongated, convoluted comments to try to refute my review (or, according to you, should I say "review"? Ha!) and insult me and every commenter here -- and your arguments are STILL as cohesive as Humpty Dumpty after his great fall, and as coherent as the ramblings of an asylum patient. Many or darn near all of the points you have raised have already been discussed and refuted in this section, and you've got some nerve to call out everyone here, who, unlike you, at least WRITE something here. I don't know whether to be flattered that someone on God's green earth has bothered to respond to my piece four years later in this manner -- or to be legit disturbed by it. The internet makes you do the darndest things, eh?
Boy, wipe the excess foam off the side of your mouth and go take your meds. The party ended a long time ago.
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Aug 06 '10
4:02 am PDT
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FOR YOU UNEDUCATED, UNINFORMED HIP-HOP "REVIEWERS" (Reply to this comment)
by rjswift
I still say The winner of the battle is Kool Moe Dee.
For you uneducated and informed judging on battle by career outcomes...
The fall of many rappers who battled LL Cool J had NOTHING to do with the feud. It had to do with overall mass appeal and exposure. LL Cool J is a light skinned guy with (i guess) good looks and is like-able. Kool Moe Dee is a dark-skinned brother who won't appeal to the masses (pop-audience). You won't see him in many movies or TV hows as you would LL Cool J. Plus on the rap side, LL is going to sell more records because of him going Pop. Almost none of the people buying LL's records would say:
"I bought this because I think LL won the battle" since they wouldn't even have knew there WAS one.
MC Shan, Canibus, etc.. same applies.
Like Will Smith who used his light skinned TV and movie career to help push "Big Willie Style" past 10 million sold, Like LL would be a rap footnote along with all MCs mentioned if they weren't movie stars. So stop being stupid and judging off career outcomes since movie directors are saying:
"I hired LL because he battled Kool Moe Dee, MC Shan, Canibus, Ice T, Hammer and so on". Just like no one is going to say:
"I stopped buying those guys because they battled LL Cool J".
Rap battles don't kill careers, people. That's just something rappers say while feuding with other rappers. Nobody just stops buying a rappers music unless they just don't like the product anymore. So those of you saying LL killed those guys careers don't know about industry politics/public taste matters. You really need to stop with the cretin way of thinking.
The ONLY way a rapper kills another rapper's career is if that rapper owns the label the feuding rapper is recording for or physically keeping the rapper from recording, performing, or promoting their product.
But simply making a diss record towards another rapper doesn't kill that rappers career.
You people saying this are not true "hip-hoppers". You judge by MTV and Pop audience subpar standards.
The "reviewer" is definitely included with that bull"s" "review".
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Aug 05 '10
9:21 am PDT
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Actually, The Winner Is.. (Reply to this comment)
by rjswift
Obviously the Winner in this lyrical battle is Kool Moe Dee.
Simply put, Moe Dee's "disses" were direct and even though he might have repeated a couple of techniques from "Let's Go" to "Death Blow", his wordplay was top notch non the less. He not only calls out LL Cool J by name, but wrangles the "L" out of it! There was no denying who was being lyrically assulted from Moe Dee's standpoint.
LL Cool J did have a couple of good disses. However the big letdown here is it sounded no different than his other records in terms of being so general, he could be talking about well, ANYWONE!! How could he not address Moe Dee by name after such a beating from "Let's Go", "Da Break Of Dawn" (or even "Jingling Baby") still kept the same vague indirect LL formula. You would have to know of the situation to know who's being addressed. This doesn't mean the disses weren't good, but not enough counter such a slashing of his name alone.
For the "reviewer" and anyone else who is all about the PRODUCTION of a diss record. It's called a RAP battle for a reason. Because it's RAPPERS feuding, not PRODUCERS. It would be like saying "Wow, Marley's snare dissed Teddy's hi-hat". Well, making it a "beat battle" is just that stupid. Anyway, So Moe Dee used overused James Brown samples. Big deal. Doesn't make his disses and wordplay any less potent or LL's any more potent.
Also, those judging the winner on a career outcome is just as stupid. LL's career accomplishments are due to his appeal to the masses, his acting, and his clothing line. Had LL Cool J just stayed a rapper only, he'd be a hip-hop footnote like Kool Moe Dee who doesn't appeal to the masses like LL but who is the better rapper.
Another case, an equally light-skinned Will Smith remaing a rapper only. "Big Willie Style" would be going lint instead of Diamond (10 million sold). Rap battles are not judged by careers but the records made in reguards to the feud itself. Smarten up, people. Learn about hip-hop if you're going to attempt to comment on it.
The "reviewer" states that the winners name starts with an "s" No. The word of what their "review" is worth starts with that letter and no, it's not "Superman" and rhymes with "spit".
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Aug 03 '10
2:12 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Think the essay coulda had a tad less bias... (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
First, this is crazy cool that you're responding to these. I swear, I just happened to search LL vs. Kool Moe Dee just for the helluvit and came across your response to my response.
Hey, no problem, man. I strive to respond to every comment on my stuff, and I especially appreciate yours because it makes me really think about my reasoning behind my piece. It’s always nice to meet a rap fan/hip-hop writer who is well versed in the historical aspect of hip-hop.
But remember, I only brought up this point because you were dismissing how heavy "Jack the Ripper" was when it dropped. Moe Dee was old school, and that being the case, he had a penchant of going to overused wells, like James Brown samples. "How You Like Me Now," produced by the very mainstream Teddy Riley, didn't sound like the hardcore Hip hop that heads wanted to hear. Kool Moe Dee himself has stated numerous times in interviews that he felt he sold out to some degree with songs like "How You Like Me.." and "Go See the Doctor." So when LL came back with Ripper, with the stripped down big beat and dissing Moe Dee for not knowing how to make "Real rap songs" it hits harder within the context:
Back for the payback, I must say that
I heard your new jam, I don't play that
It ain't loud enough punk, it ain't hitting
This year you tried, next year you're quitting
I do it up rough, tough, I don't bluff
and this is an example of funky stuff
When you wanna make hits, you make 'em like this
They ain't like this they don't hit, they miss
It's a strong record, a record for the strong
For those who appreciate real rap songs
Then he gets damn near visceral in a way that makes Moe Dee's "I'll treat him like a child" attacks seem juvenile in comparison.
You gotta want to get hotter
Moving and grooving, and always improving a lot'a
People don't know how nice I am
He was sleeping, so now I gotta slice my man
Like ham in a pan, wrap him up in Saran
Kidnap him and slap him up inside of a van
I said all this to say that dismissing "Ripper" as braggadicious fluff takes away from the fact that there were real disses here, mixed in with ego lines (but hey, "How You LIke Me..." was just as ego driven in the first few verses).
Maybe that’s why “Jack the Ripper†can be polarizing. Kool Moe Dee was a little more direct with “How Ya Like Me Now,†and while it’s a very good argument that LL mixed it up, it is equally as valid to point out that it detracted from his main focus. Which is why I decided to avoid those lines you pointed out; I mean, I know he was somewhat referring to Kool Moe Dee, but there is very little to glean from it as evidence in comparison to something like “How Ya Like Me Naaaaaaow? I’m getting busier…â€
Okay, that's fine. And what you're saying is EXACTLY right. This is the argument for why "Let's Go" was better than "Ripper," which I've never discounted. "Let's Go" eviscerated LL and almost ended his career. I didn't bring up the KRS One instance for the sake of using it as a spot-on analogy. I brought it up to show that there ARE instances where hot lyrics aren't a guarantee that you'll get the win; different circumstances require different approaches. But I'll get to that later...
No, let's call it what it was, LL's career was over. Over! He received a lyrical beating that no one before or since has been asked to endure. I mean, even Benzino didn't get it that bad. And I say all that to say, the success of MSKYO wasn't a GIVEN. The album was great because the album was great. LL wasn't like 50 Cent, he was more like Ja Rule. And to come back and receive those types of accolades means the Hip hop heads (1989 now, not the pop-oriented ones we've come to know) were really feeling him. That means songs like "To Da Break" registered, not because he was some pop prince guaranteed success (he wasn't at the time), but because they were actually good. And that brings me to my major point:
In between 1987 and 1990, HIP HOP HAD CHANGED.
The culture was in the infancy of its Jazz/Alternative movement. Boom Bap was going out of style. And "To Da Break", in this atmosphere, was a better diss than "Death Blow." Different circumstances require different approaches. Lyrically, sonically, LL hit Moe Dee in a way that heads during THAT time would better appreciate; it was fresh, it was original. Thinking about it, I don’t think up until that point, anyone had ever gotten on the mic and just started playin the dozens, which is essentially what LL did. It was new.
We agree on that; you elaborated on the section where I talk about “To da Break of Dawn.â€
When it came time for Moe Dee to answer he did so in the tried-and-true way he was used to, he went back to '87 and the results were disastrous. Not because he was wacker, but because he didn't correctly gauge the change in cultural climate.
Again, agreed, based on the essay. Same with the statement you later made: If Moe Dee had approached "Death Blow" differently, with more originality, made a better a song, this argument wouldn't be going on. But he wasn't ABLE to; he did what he knew how to do, which was rhyme. And in some cases, that's not enough. Back in the days maybe, but by 1990 battling included the argument of "who could also make the better song" and Moe Dee didn't want to admit that.
First off, Moe Dee wasn't an underground artist. When LL was licking his wounds, Moe Dee was winning an NAACP award, a Grammy for his work with Quincy Jones, and later performing at the Grammy's. He was just a mainstream artist as LL. Which brings me to my point, you're talking as if Moe Dee was some underground artist who couldn't compete against LL's marketing team, but Moe Dee was at the larger label (Jive), LL was at Def Jam, which was still pretty new.
Hmm, wherever did I say, or even imply, that KMD was an “underground artist�
Let us not confuse artists with labels, or even genres. Yes, Jive was a larger label than Def Jam, but they simply did not have the commercial success with hip-hop that Def Jam had. (That’s what happens when you have The Beastie Boys, Public Enemy and yes, LL in your corner) And back to KMD, I’m not discounting his success -- I even mention his highpoint in 1988-89 – but the NAACP award is marginal at best, and his Grammy and appearance came only as a result of his collaboration with Quincy Jones. In fact, how many hip-hop fans even know the dude has a Grammy?
Also bear in mind that for all the bashing he was suffering, LL was still (inexplicably) a commercial mainstay. His 1989 album, Walking With a Panther, went platinum. Quickly. And it contained two Top 40 pop hits (Meanwhile, KMD’s album, Knowledge Is King, released the same year, “only†went gold) Yeah, it can be argued that few outside of Middle America were buying the album, but it only confirms my point that for all his acclaim in the lyrical war, I have a hard time believing that KMD ever came close to the visibility or mainstream clout of LL, and I believe it could have helped him a great deal.
And when I said you were unbiased, it just felt like you were very dismissive of LL the emcee. And having that POV will attach a certain bias when you're writing about something as subjective as 'Who Won This Battle.'
Nope, I certainly am not dismissive of LL. He’s in my top 10, easily (For proof, you can check out my 10 Greatest Rappers of All Time Series. Here’s his entry: http://www.epinions.com/content_4823687300. A little outdated, but still…) I can’t say the same for Kool Moe Dee. Indeed, I am a way bigger fan of LL than KMD. So I have a hard time thinking that I was biased in this particular instance; in fact, I think, in writing this, I was a very reasonable person.
Hit me up, I'm out.
www.myspace.com/richard_corey
www.projectrhyme.com
www.hip-hop.net/member/Richard Corey
I sure will. Thanks!
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 21 '08
7:28 am PDT
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Re: Re: Think the essay coulda had a tad less bias... (Reply to this comment)
by younggbrown
First, this is crazy cool that you're responding to these. I swear, I just happened to search LL vs. Kool Moe Dee just for the helluvit and came across your response to my response.
anyway, on to my novel...
"It’s your opinion that “Jack the Ripper” is a classic song, which is fine. I think it’s an awesome song of pure braggadocio. But we are talking about diss records here, and as a diss record, it falls short. I mean, come on, the guy focuses way more on praising himself than taking out his opponent!"
But remember, I only brought up this point because you were dismissing how heavy "Jack the Ripper" was when it dropped. Moe Dee was old school, and that being the case, he had a penchant of going to overused wells, like James Brown samples. "How You Like Me Now," produced by the very mainstream Teddy Riley, didn't sound like the hardcore Hip hop that heads wanted to hear. Kool Moe Dee himself has stated numerous times in interviews that he felt he sold out to some degree with songs like "How You Like Me.." and "Go See the Doctor." So when LL came back with Ripper, with the stripped down big beat and dissing Moe Dee for not knowing how to make "Real rap songs" it hits harder within the context:
Back for the payback, I must say that
I heard your new jam, I don't play that
It ain't loud enough punk, it ain't hitting
This year you tried, next year you're quitting
I do it up rough, tough, I don't bluff
and this is an example of funky stuff
When you wanna make hits, you make 'em like this
They ain't like this they don't hit, they miss
It's a strong record, a record for the strong
For those who appreciate real rap songs
Then he gets damn near visceral in a way that makes Moe Dee's "I'll treat him like a child" attacks seem juvenile in comparison.
You gotta want to get hotter
Moving and grooving, and always improving a lot'a
People don't know how nice I am
He was sleeping, so now I gotta slice my man
Like ham in a pan, wrap him up in Saran
Kidnap him and slap him up inside of a van
I said all this to say that dismissing "Ripper" as braggadicious fluff takes away from the fact that there were real disses here, mixed in with ego lines (but hey, "How You LIke Me..." was just as ego driven in the first few verses).
"Here is where your premise shows its major flaw. We are taking about diss records here, not live performance. With a live performance, at least you have a crowd, you have the showmanship from both MCs, etc. You simply don’t have that with going to a studio, recording a 4-minute song, and throwing it out there for the people to listen to – on their own. It makes you focus on the lyrics way more than considering any other factor, quite frankly."
Okay, that's fine. And what you're saying is EXACTLY right. This is the argument for why "Let's Go" was better than "Ripper," which I've never discounted. "Let's Go" eviscerated LL and almost ended his career. I didn't bring up the KRS One instance for the sake of using it as a spot-on analogy. I brought it up to show that there ARE instances where hot lyrics aren't a guarantee that you'll get the win; different circumstances require different approaches. But I'll get to that later...
"We can go on forever about the merits of “To Da Break of Dawn,” but I still hold to the theory that the success of Mama Said Knock You Out helped LL a great deal, too. Not even sure we can call it “LL vs. Moe Dee II” the war was still on, even though LL was reduced to subliminal disses in Walking With a Panther and tacking “Jack the Ripper” -- a song that preceded “Let’s Go” rather than answering to it -- at the end of the tape version of the album. It’s just that with the “failure” of that album, LL was considered down and out. Not so with MSKYO, though."
No, let's call it what it was, LL's career was over. Over! He received a lyrical beating that no one before or since has been asked to endure. I mean, even Benzino didn't get it that bad. And I say all that to say, the success of MSKYO wasn't a GIVEN. The album was great because the album was great. LL wasn't like 50 Cent, he was more like Ja Rule. And to come back and receive those types of accolades means the Hip hop heads (1989 now, not the pop-oriented ones we've come to know) were really feeling him. That means songs like "To Da Break" registered, not because he was some pop prince guaranteed success (he wasn't at the time), but because they were actually good. And that brings me to my major point:
In between 1987 and 1990, HIP HOP HAD CHANGED.
The culture was in the infancy of its Jazz/Alternative movement. Boom Bap was going out of style. And "To Da Break", in this atmosphere, was a better diss than "Death Blow." Different circumstances require different approaches. Lyrically, sonically, LL hit Moe Dee in a way that heads during THAT time would better appreciate; it was fresh, it was original. Thinking about it, I don’t think up until that point, anyone had ever gotten on the mic and just started playin the dozens, which is essentially what LL did. It was new.
When it came time for Moe Dee to answer he did so in the tried-and-true way he was used to, he went back to '87 and the results were disastrous. Not because he was wacker, but because he didn't correctly gauge the change in cultural climate.
"Yeah, he appealed to the people more, alright – with over two million copies sold. If Kool Moe Dee sold that amount with Funke Funke Wisdom -- and his album was formatted in the same way against LL as LL’s was against him – don’t you think he would have had a fighting chance, regardless of the quality of “Death Blow”? Nevertheless, KMD pretty much shot himself in the foot, because that song sounded real tired."
First off, Moe Dee wasn't an underground artist. When LL was licking his wounds, Moe Dee was winning an NAACP award, a Grammy for his work with Quincy Jones, and later performing at the Grammy's. He was just a mainstream artist as LL. Which brings me to my point, you're talking as if Moe Dee was some underground artist who couldn't compete against LL's marketing team, but Moe Dee was at the larger label (Jive), LL was at Def Jam, which was still pretty new. If Moe Dee had approached "Death Blow" differently, with more originality, made a better a song, this argument wouldn't be going on. But he wasn't ABLE to; he did what he knew how to do, which was rhyme. And in some cases, that's not enough. Back in the days maybe, but by 1990 battling included the argument of "who could also make the better song" and Moe Dee didn't want to admit that.
And when I said you were unbiased, it just felt like you were very dismissive of LL the emcee. And having that POV will attach a certain bias when you're writing about something as subjective as 'Who Won This Battle.'
Hit me up, I'm out.
www.myspace.com/richard_corey
www.projectrhyme.com
www.hip-hop.net/member/Richard Corey
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Jun 20 '08
1:56 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Who really Won? That's Simple!!!!!!! (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
As for LL not being a "battle emcee"? How many rappers have battled LL & not had a rap career too long afterwards? MC SHAN, KMD, ICE-T, HAMMER, CANNIBUS, WYCLEF (He squashed his beef with LL so he's the exception), ALL THE REST OF THOSE MENTIONED HAVEN'T BEEN HEARD FROM RAPPING IN A VERY LONG TIME! LL's at his best when he is battling!
Perhaps saying that LL is not a “battle emcee” is a tad bit too much. But I don’t think that is Kyle’s point. The point is, LL is a tad bit overrated as one, and your response to him is a prime example of it. Here is one…well, make that two reasons why:
1.) You throw in a list of names of the people LL presumably vanquished, without so much considering other factors in play (like you conspicuously did with the components of a diss record earlier in your response):
MC Shan: Have you forgotten about the more popular theory for his demise (the “Bridge Wars” with Boogie Down Productions)?
KMD: Him shooting himself in the foot with “Death Blow” and flopping with Funke Funke Wisdom was just as harmful to him.
Ice-T: LL’s ethering still did not prevent him from scoring his most successful (both commercially and critically) album, O.G. Original Gangster a few months later. In fact, the year 1991 can be considered Ice-T’s epoch, both in music and otherwise (e.g., New Jack City, anyone?). If anything, Ice-T’s decline can be traced right from the “Cop Killer” episode, a full two years after his battle with LL had simmered down.
Hammer: Now, come on, we’re giving this guy way too much credit here, aren’t we? This one is so self-explanatory, I will not even dignify it with a more elaborate response!
Canibus: If anything, Canibus imploded. In my opinion, LL’s response, “The Ripper Strikes Back,” was rather weak. And for an MC just starting out as opposed to a well-established veteran, a bomb of a debut album surely did not help his cause (and contrary to what you think about the aforementioned MCs’ activity, or lack thereof, Canibus still makes records – e.g., For Whom the Beat Tolls was released last year -- even though only like ten people buy them these days).
Wyclef: If he’s the exception, why bother including him? And can you really attribute Wyclef’s (commercial) decline to LL, seriously? None of the disses exchanged between them were comparatively high-profile. People just…stopped buying Wyclef’s albums. It seems you’re just reaching here to illustrate your point; stop padding dude’s resume.
2.) LL’s at his best when he’s battling? I beg to differ. I can argue that it is his braggadocio: One only needs to check out songs like “Rock the Bells,” “I’m Bad,” and “Mama Said Knock You Out” for evidence. Better yet, how about his love songs? Do I really need to mention “I Need Love,” “Around the Way Girl,” “Hey Lover,” and “Doin’ It” (Umm, I just did!)? Hell, it is even more of a factor in his last few albums/the more recent years; as tired as his boasting has become, at least fans looked forward to songs like “Luv U Better” and “Paradise.”
You know, come to think of it, I think even LL himself gives himself too much credit when he says in “I Shot Ya (Remix)”: “What the f**k? I thought I conquered the world/Crushed Moe Dee, Hammer, and Ice-T’s girl!” Fact is, not one MC in history has had his/her career ended by just one factor alone: battling. And that is the overarching theme of this essay. Obviously, some people will get it, while some won’t.
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 19 '08
5:33 am PDT
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Re: Think the essay coulda had a tad less bias... (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Damn, this reply is so long, it should be an essay in itself. And it comes almost two years later. Wow, I’m feeling myself!
I LOOOOOVE Kool Moe Dee. But that doesn't take away from my ability to appreciate what makes LL (and his songs) great.
'Jack the Ripper' is a CLASSIC song. The boom-bap and hardcore braggadocio on LL's part could restart a dead man's heart. Not to mention that I think, in LL's mind, he was answering a subliminal diss with another subliminal diss. More than likely, he was unaware of what Moe Dee was about to do and was convinced the altercation was going to end there. Of course we now know better.
It’s your opinion that “Jack the Ripper” is a classic song, which is fine. I think it’s an awesome song of pure braggadocio. But we are talking about diss records here, and as a diss record, it falls short. I mean, come on, the guy focuses way more on praising himself than taking out his opponent!
And besides, there's more to battle than just lyrics.
Yeah, you heard me.
There's more to battles than lyrics. That's one thing Kool Moe Dee never wanted to admit.
Yeah, I hear you, but I’ll get to that in a sec, following the next paragraph:
But yeah, it's entirely possible to win a battle based on other criteria. It's all about playing to your crowd's likes. If the crowd is a lyrical crowd (as they tended to be in 1988), then yeah, you can win by being lyrical. But if the crowd wants to laugh, then all the lyrics in the world won't help you when MC Comedian gets on the mic and starts snapping on you.
Don't believe me, ask Melle Mel. One of the greatest lyricists the art form has seen lost to a young KRS One with the, albeit amateurishly simple, line:
"Here's one thing you need to learn...
Old school artists don't always burn."
According to Kool Moe Dee's book "There's a God on the Mic", the crowd went BANANAS. KRS was decided the winner, even though most lyrical technicians, Moe Dee said, would have easily given the win to Mel.
Here is where your premise shows its major flaw. We are taking about diss records here, not live performance. With a live performance, at least you have a crowd, you have the showmanship from both MCs, etc. You simply don’t have that with going to a studio, recording a 4-minute song, and throwing it out there for the people to listen to – on their own. It makes you focus on the lyrics way more than considering any other factor, quite frankly.
I know of the Melle Mel/KRS-One battle, I’m aware of it. I just think that example you used is rather misplaced.
The same thing happened with "LL vs. Moe Dee II." Although "To Da Break of Dawn" wasn't as lyrically technical as Moe Dee's verses, it was HIGH-LARIOUS! Come on, "Star Trek shades"? "Burned up French Fry"?! "Yuckmouth smile"?!!? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! Not to mention how LL just thoroughly massacred Hammer and Ice T (that WAS Ice-T's wife on the album cover that LL threatened to skeet skeet over, right? HAHAHAHAHA).
Moe Dee just went to the well one too many times and didn't follow Hip hop's most important rule: Always come fresh. "Death Blow" sounded like "Let's Go Lite". Meanwhile, LL sounded reinvigorated, throwing punches with preciseness and an almost nonchalant arrogance that wouldn't be seen again until Jay-Z *ahem* borrowed it for "Take Over."
We can go on forever about the merits of “To Da Break of Dawn,” but I still hold to the theory that the success of Mama Said Knock You Out helped LL a great deal, too. Not even sure we can call it “LL vs. Moe Dee II” the war was still on, even though LL was reduced to subliminal disses in Walking With a Panther and tacking “Jack the Ripper” -- a song that preceded “Let’s Go” rather than answering to it -- at the end of the tape version of the album. It’s just that with the “failure” of that album, LL was considered down and out. Not so with MSKYO, though.
Oh and let's not forget the other subliminal disses LL loaded in "Mama Said..." like "Murdergram" where he said:
"Coast to Coast, blind cripple and crazy
you used a dictionary but you still don't phase me..
Listening weak, you sound cheap
you talk about Blackness, but all you represent is wackness!!"
Peep the album if you haven't in a while, along with "Murdergram", "Eat Em Up 'L", "Jingling Baby" and "Mama Said Knock You Out" all aim their barrels indirectly at Moe Dee.
Again, you are detracting from the issue here. We are talking about diss records here, not sporadic disses. I have the album, I am well aware of whom LL’s talking about the whole time, and I don’t think giving it an umpteenth spin is going to change that.
Moe Dee was (pfft, "was", IS) a great lyricist, but he got so entombed in his own "Rules of Rhyming" that he forgot, well, he doesn't make the rules. The people make the rules. And LL with "Break of Dawn" was able to appeal to the people more.
Yeah, he appealed to the people more, alright – with over two million copies sold. If Kool Moe Dee sold that amount with Funke Funke Wisdom -- and his album was formatted in the same way against LL as LL’s was against him – don’t you think he would have had a fighting chance, regardless of the quality of “Death Blow”? Nevertheless, KMD pretty much shot himself in the foot, because that song sounded real tired.
And as far as "Return of the Ripper" being wack...I shake my head at you.
"Your career will be over next year, yeah I said it
Look over your shoulder, n!gga! That's where you're headed!"
Come on...I MEAN, COME ON!!!
Yeah, as far as “Return of the Ripper” being nice, I shake my head at you!
It is the same thing he did with “Jack the Ripper”: talk about himself. For 5 ½ minutes! Meanwhile, some wiry upstart is right in front of you, having rocked your world with “Second Round K.O.”, and that couplet you mentioned, plus the “ninety-nine-percent-of-[Canibus’]-fans-don’t-exist” line, is the very best you can do?
Come on…I MEAN, COME ON!!!
And as for my essay using a “tad less bias,” well, I didn’t proclaim either one the take-all winner, so exactly what kind of bias are you referring to?
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 19 '08
5:05 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Who really Won? That's Simple!!!!!!! (Reply to this comment)
by oldskldetroit
LL's not a "battle emcee"? My man, LL THE BATTLE EMCEE! Lyrics are very important in a battle, but so is the "beat/track/music" that comes with the lyrics! Also important are the persona of the emcees involved, their charisma, reputation, flow of their lyrics, timing of diss release, & popularity (at some point & in some instances). If the song sounds like crap(i.e. Death Blow) it doesn't really matter what is said on that song. Let's Go is the best song in the battle between LL & Moe Dee (I was a fan of both, still am of LL..., though I was very disappointed with the last cd), followed by How Ya Like Me Now, then To Da Break of Dawn, Murdergram, & Jingling Baby. Also, how you follow up/counter/answer a diss matters in determining the winner also, (Listen to Back Where I Belong by LL featuring Ja Rule from The G.O.A.T, where LL sums up, in my opinion his battle with Cannnibus). As for LL not being a "battle emcee"? How many rappers have battled LL & not had a rap career too long afterwards? MC SHAN, KMD, ICE-T, HAMMER, CANNIBUS, WYCLEF (He squashed his beef with LL so he's the exception), ALL THE REST OF THOSE MENTIONED HAVEN'T BEEN HEARD FROM RAPPING IN A VERY LONG TIME! LL's at his best when he is battling!
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Jun 18 '08
9:43 am PDT
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Think the essay coulda had a tad less bias... (Reply to this comment)
by younggbrown
I LOOOOOVE Kool Moe Dee. But that doesn't take away from my ability to appreciate what makes LL (and his songs) great.
'Jack the Ripper' is a CLASSIC song. The boom-bap and hardcore braggadocio on LL's part could restart a dead man's heart. Not to mention that I think, in LL's mind, he was answering a subliminal diss with another subliminal diss. More than likely, he was unaware of what Moe Dee was about to do and was convinced the altercation was going to end there. Of course we now know better.
And besides, there's more to battle than just lyrics.
Yeah, you heard me.
There's more to battles than lyrics. That's one thing Kool Moe Dee never wanted to admit.
But yeah, it's entirely possible to win a battle based on other criteria. It's all about playing to your crowd's likes. If the crowd is a lyrical crowd (as they tended to be in 1988), then yeah, you can win by being lyrical. But if the crowd wants to laugh, then all the lyrics in the world won't help you when MC Comedian gets on the mic and starts snapping on you.
Don't believe me, ask Melle Mel. One of the greatest lyricists the art form has seen lost to a young KRS One with the, albeit amateurishly simple, line:
"Here's one thing you need to learn...
Old school artists don't always burn."
According to Kool Moe Dee's book "There's a God on the Mic", the crowd went BANANAS. KRS was decided the winner, even though most lyrical technicians, Moe Dee said, would have easily given the win to Mel.
The same thing happened with "LL vs. Moe Dee II." Although "To Da Break of Dawn" wasn't as lyrically technical as Moe Dee's verses, it was HIGH-LARIOUS! Come on, "Star Trek shades"? "Burned up French Fry"?! "Yuckmouth smile"?!!? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! Not to mention how LL just thoroughly massacred Hammer and Ice T (that WAS Ice-T's wife on the album cover that LL threatened to skeet skeet over, right? HAHAHAHAHA).
Moe Dee just went to the well one too many times and didn't follow Hip hop's most important rule: Always come fresh. "Death Blow" sounded like "Let's Go Lite". Meanwhile, LL sounded reinvigorated, throwing punches with preciseness and an almost nonchalant arrogance that wouldn't be seen again until Jay-Z *ahem* borrowed it for "Take Over."
Oh and let's not forget the other subliminal disses LL loaded in "Mama Said..." like "Murdergram" where he said:
"Coast to Coast, blind cripple and crazy
you used a dictionary but you still don't phase me..
Listening weak, you sound cheap
you talk about Blackness, but all you represent is wackness!!"
Peep the album if you haven't in a while, along with "Murdergram", "Eat Em Up 'L", "Jingling Baby" and "Mama Said Knock You Out" all aim their barrels indirectly at Moe Dee.
Moe Dee was (pfft, "was", IS) a great lyricist, but he got so entombed in his own "Rules of Rhyming" that he forgot, well, he doesn't make the rules. The people make the rules. And LL with "Break of Dawn" was able to appeal to the people more.
I see the KMD vs. LL affair as Hip hop's first and (so far) only war. It had multiple battles over the span of years, two to be precise; KMD decisively winning the first and LL' pulling a close win in the second.
And as far as "Return of the Ripper" being wack...I shake my head at you.
"Your career will be over next year, yeah I said it
Look over your shoulder, n!gga! That's where you're headed!"
Come on...I MEAN, COME ON!!!
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Oct 03 '07
11:26 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who really Won (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Yeah, I'll definitely check it out. And thanks for the historical info on the beef.
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Feb 18 '07
2:38 pm PST
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Re: Re: Re: Who really Won (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Yeah, I need to get my hands on that book. I've heard so much about it, especially how he rates the greatest MCs. The Beastie Boys even made a reference to his book in one of their songs - I can't remember which one, though.
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jan 08 '07
6:04 am PST
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Re: Who really Won? That's Simple!!!!!!! (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Obviously this depends on what you view as the determining factor.
If you know anything about Hip Hop and remain true to its core, then you know that none of Cool J's records could ever match Moe Dee. In fact, Cool J stayed hidden behind his record label when it came to the challenge to meet Moe Dee live, face to face.
Which leads us into the second factor which has nothing to do with the true nature of Hip Hop and more to do with the music industry's control over who and what gets air time. Def Jam defeated Jive records every time out the box because they not only got video play but they got spins on air 24/7. They were way ahead of Jive in production and marketing of their artists to the people.
We then conclude with the people. As with all genres of music, the majority of each generation has been fed more and more flash rather than substance. Which leads us back to the music industry creating and controlling what is marketable.
To this day, you would be hard pressed to find any artists in regular rotation on Radio One who would have the skills and fortitude to battle the pioneers of emceeing face to face.
The reality is that most often articles about these battles are written by people who don't have the history behind them to judge emcees.
So Who Won? The K Double O L M O E the coolest of the cool and they call him Moe Dee
I don't know whether to take this as essentially an agreement with my essay or a questioning of my hip-hop knowledge in general, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.
If you were to break it down to the bare essentials - lyrics, and nothing more - Kool Moe Dee whooped LL's a*s, plain and simple. His diss songs were superior to any of LL's. But my point of the essay is that lyrical feuds are more than just diss songs. It is not an entirely black/white issue. If Kool Moe Dee's "Death Blow" was a good diss song and he sold freaking 3 million copies of Funke Funke Wisdom, no doubt more people would campaign for him as the winner - hell, the decision would be unanimous. Or maybe he should have just shut up, because really, "To tha Break Of Dawn" is still pretty lightweight compared to "Let's Go" and probably was not worth responding to. But he didn't.
It's like the Jay-Z vs. Nas thing. Lyrically yes, Nas ethered Jay, no pun intended. He won the lyrical battle. But guess who sold more records of The Blueprint than Stillmatic? And guess who is working under the other (come on, guys, either way you look at it, it's true)? No wonder some people still maintain that Jay won!
If the title of my essay was LL Cool J vs. Kool Moe Dee: So, Who Lyrically Won?, no doubt I would have concluded that it was Moe Dee. But it is the failure of "Death Blow" and Funke Funke Wisdom, and the commercial success of Mama Said Knock You Out that makes the whole situation more ambiguous and a lot less simple than a lot of people would want to admit. Besides, what does Kool Moe Dee have to show for it by kicking LL's a*s lyrically? Virtual obscurity?
I think a more holistic approach was more appropriate. Thus the question I posed was, who really won?
It's sales, period. And that's the answer I sticking to.
Peace,
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Aug 16 '06
10:14 am PDT
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Who really Won? That's Simple!!!!!!! (Reply to this comment)
by dahialife
Obviously this depends on what you view as the determining factor.
If you know anything about Hip Hop and remain true to its core, then you know that none of Cool J's records could ever match Moe Dee. In fact, Cool J stayed hidden behind his record label when it came to the challenge to meet Moe Dee live, face to face.
Which leads us into the second factor which has nothing to do with the true nature of Hip Hop and more to do with the music industry's control over who and what gets air time. Def Jam defeated Jive records every time out the box because they not only got video play but they got spins on air 24/7. They were way ahead of Jive in production and marketing of their artists to the people.
We then conclude with the people. As with all genres of music, the majority of each generation has been fed more and more flash rather than substance. Which leads us back to the music industry creating and controlling what is marketable.
To this day, you would be hard pressed to find any artists in regular rotation on Radio One who would have the skills and fortitude to battle the pioneers of emceeing face to face.
The reality is that most often articles about these battles are written by people who don't have the history behind them to judge emcees.
So Who Won? The K Double O L M O E the coolest of the cool and they call him Moe Dee
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Aug 15 '06
12:01 pm PDT
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Re: All good kind of (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
"Infuriated"? Wow, calm down, my dear friend! lol. I guess we agree to disagree. I have to admit, even though I give him his props, LL had some luck on his side; and I think it is interesting that his battle with Canibus paralleled the one with Kool Moe Dee, which I extensively pointed out in this piece.
Oh well, whatever - thanks for leaving a comment, appreciate it!
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jul 26 '06
10:35 pm PDT
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All good kind of (Reply to this comment)
by noahdabomb3
This was a great review despite the fact that I have never heard half of the songs that you mentioned. I will trust your judgement on the Kool Moe vs. LL beef, but you said one thing that infuriated me about the Canibus vs. LL beef.
You implied that LL's response to "Second Round K.O." was weak. "The Ripper Strikes Back" was lyrically up to par with "Second Round" and reversed all of Canibus' disses as well as humorously dissing Mike Tyson. The only reason people don't like it as much is because of the beat and the fact that LL Cool J made it. I personally feel that they tied in their battle and that LL hasn't lost a step in battle rapping.
Whatever, good review anyway.
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Jul 26 '06
10:30 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Hmmm... (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Hey, I just read your Canibus vs. Eminem review.
Wow, just wow.
Thoroughly impressed with the wealth of information, the meticulous detail, the pacing and the chronology, the dissection of the lyrics, everything. That deserved the "Very Helpful" rating I decided to give.
Hopefully I'll do more essays like this dealing with rap feuds, as well as other topics in hip-hop history.
Once again, well done on such an excellent job, and thanks for stopping by!
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 24 '06
7:58 pm PDT
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Re: Hmmm... (Reply to this comment)
by mcheadcase
Interesting piece on probably hip-hop's greatest beef (sorry, I'm an old-school guy).
Yeah, what that guy said.
Soirry for the self-pimping, but I did a piece kinda like this myself, though my focus was the beef between Canibus and Eminem. If you havent seen it yet, here it is: http://www.epinions.com/content_4296515716
Keep up the good work man!
Peace
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Jun 24 '06
1:39 pm PDT
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Re: Awesome review (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Hey, what's going on, men?
The third rapper LL Cool J dissed was MC Hammer(first verse). Apparently he thought he was one of the many MCs at this time dissing him - albeit subliminally - so he returned the favor:
Gimme that microphone
I'ma show you the real meaning of the danger zone
Stop dancing, get to walking
Shut your old mouth when young folks is talking!
Huh, you little snake in the grass
You swing a hammer, but you couldn't break a glass
Gimme a lighter - *woof!*
Now you're cut loose...from that Jheri curl juice
Nice use of the pun ("hammer"). He didn't suffer as much as Moe Dee, or even worse, Ice-T (who just got massacred), but he did get his a*s served alright!
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 22 '06
7:31 pm PDT
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Re: Great article... (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
Hey, what's up? No need to be embarrassed - it was a little guess game at the end I decided to throw in to get you guys guessing.
The answer was "sales". If you read my essay again, you will notice that it is the underlying and recurring theme in the feud. In the end, LL beat Kool Moe Dee where, for better or worse, it most mattered - at the charts.
Thanks for stopping by!
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 22 '06
7:17 pm PDT
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Awesome review (Reply to this comment)
by russianraiderz
but I've got a question. I've heard "To Da Break of Dawn" before, and I knew it was a diss record, but I didn't know he got 3 rappers on it. I can identify the part about Kool Moe Dee, and the one about Ice-T, but who's the third guy he gets?
Just wondering, thanks.
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Jun 22 '06
1:50 pm PDT
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Re: Hmmm... (Reply to this comment)
by balogun
As good as I believe "Let's Go" is, I also believe "To da Break of Dawn" was just as good. Sure, it might not have been as technically sound as Kool Moe Dee's, but he slaughters three MCs all in one song. Talk about killing three birds with one stone!
I'm a die-hard old-school fan. 1987 to 1993 were the golden years of rap indeed, and some of these five diss records are proof of that. Rappers just don't make quality records this frequently anymore. Not even LL.
Thanks for the comment!
Dayo a.k.a. the Balogun
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Jun 22 '06
11:26 am PDT
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Great article... (Reply to this comment)
by biggerthnjesus
But Im kinda slow on that last part, what does the "s" stand for? This is pretty embarrasing
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Jun 22 '06
9:33 am PDT
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Hmmm... (Reply to this comment)
by speeddemon531
Interesting piece on probably hip-hop's greatest beef (sorry, I'm an old-school guy).
"To Da Break of Dawn", to me, is one of the greatest diss records ever. Not only does LL slay three rappers over the course of one song, but he does it without cussin'! :)
Nice job,
Mike
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Jun 22 '06
4:44 am PDT
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