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what is the rationale for ventless gas heaters? (Reply to this comment)
by aohcapablanca
Brother gasman,
Having never been tempted to buy, use or install a ventless gas heater (except when I lived in Afghanistan -- believe me those old houses had plenty of ventilation), I am baffled as to why anyone else does use them.
Grit your teeth, please, and make a rational case why millions of people use ventless gas heaters and fireplaces. I don't get it.
Cordially,
AOHCAPABLANCA/Patrick K
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May 24 '10
1:00 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hey Ginzo,
Thanks for the comments, truth is, the guy is living in a dream world. He has no technical basis for his arguments, only emotional and more than likely he believes in them. I hope he and his family don't suffer the consequences of blind belief in sub-standard technolgy.\\
Regards,
The Gasman
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Aug 29 '09
7:30 pm PDT
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Re: Re: (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Dear TCRNGE,
Thank you for your comments and for acknowledging that I am an "educated guy". My crusade, as you call it, began with the destruction and deathes of ordinary people like your grandmother. It began because I do know how deadly a vent-free gas fireplace can become. I have often stated that some will not hurt people for many years, or perhaps at all, but, without exception, they all have the ability to kill an entire family without remorse.
I understand your stance and the issue you take with mine, based upon your grandmothers relatively good health.
Let me assure you, that if, any one of several technical things went wrong with your grandmother's vent-free gas fireplace, she, and you and everyone else in that home would be quite dead or suffering brain injuries today. A defective regulator, a cracked burner, a poorly arranged log set, overfiring, misalignment of burners to logs, broken logs, too many embers on the burners, and many more things could have created, in simple terms, a CO generator and the entire living residents in that home could have been wiped out. However, under present reporting rules, your entire family would be nothing more than another statistic. It probably would make the front page in your local paper but not national news.
Your grandmother's house was probably, typically naturally aspirated, meaning, fresh air infiltrated it on a regular basis. Most older homes are good for natural infiltration air and fresh air is a key ingredient for living with vent-free fireplaces.
Your children may be fine with 5-7-10 years of living with vent-free. Many people are fine living with smoking for 10-20-30 years. Perhaps your vent-free fireplace is clean burning, for the time being. Did you consider what might happen to your kids "when", not if, but "when" the vent-free fireplace fails. It is a mechanical device and it will fail, one day. Will you be there to notice the difference in the flames? Will you pick up the scent in the room? Will you be okay with the fact that your family escapes with minor headaches or flu-like symptoms, if they are luck enough to escape? Will you still feel the strength of conviction to write glowing endorsements if one of your family pets dies, or if God forbid, one of your family members die?
With due respect, I have talked with thousands of people who use vent-free heaters and fireplace and "In the "real world", people don't use these products as supplementary heaters." I stand behind that statement, as many have told me they have two or three of these things heating their entire homes. Sometimes having so-called brains, as you say, as nothing to do with economic necessity. Perhaps you don't use them as primary sources of heat, but many of the dealers and manufacturers of these products do not discourage such practices, despite what they might say in the media. Good for you if you don't, but don't be an ostrich and pretend that because no one can see your head, you are safe in the sand.
Opening the fireplace damper makes this discussion mute, sure they work well and give off a fine ambience for your guests at Christmas. That is nothing close to what my articles have been about.
99% of the people who write to me, and I have had literally thousand of emails over the past decade, have never hear of the AGAR report or their recommendations. 90% of the installers I talk to have never heard of them and do not understand them. If you had one of the 10% who recognized the significance of the AGAR recommendations and applied them, good for you. I have one more problem with the AGAR report. They never, I repeat, "NEVER" recommended the use of vent-free fireplaces with gas input rates above 19,000 Btu's per hour. What input rate is yours? AGAR never tested anything above that rate and never approved the use of any of them beyond 8 hours per day with specific ventilation conditions in each climatic region of the country. Where are you, what was the ratio approved by AGAR for your region? What input is your unit?
As for your CO detectors, Consumers Report found that over 80% of them had "wandering" readings afte the first year of operation. This means that they may "appear" to be working, but are not telling you the true CO reading that is in the room. I have absolutely no faith in CO detectors sold by big box stores for under $100.00. I am not alone in this position. It does not matter how "responsible" you think you are, you do not have the technical ability to competently check the output. Unless of course you purchase calibration gas and test it properly. Do you order CO calibration gas? Simply pushing a button that says it is active is not equivilent to testing it, as it is not based upon the same relatively sound technology of the smoke alarm.
Incidentally, I set out to challenge consumer intelligence but not to insult it. However, more than 90% of people I have interviewed have no idea where the paperwork is on their fireplaces, their smoke alarms or the CO alarms. So you are one of the very few who file it away and actually read it.
The warnings that you read in the manuals for vent-free fireplaces and heaters are not necessarily there to make it sound like they are being open and honest for your benefit. They are mandated warnings, required by law and monitored before UL/CSA/AGA/CGA/ETL/ASTM approvals will go on the product. Most manufacturers would prefer not to have to print them, they are forced to, in order to sell them. Inevitably, it also covers their backside in liability suits.
We can never re-institute a ban on alcohol, and return to the age of prohibition, we can't stop drunk drivers. We do have the technology to regulate gas-fired heaters and fireplaces. We can make them safe, for very little additional cost, people can enjoy safe, sidewall vented, direct vent heaters and fireplaces.
We should be prepared to ban any chemical vapours that make people sick, including cleaning chemicals, or poorly made cars that kill people. I didn't get your weird references to people who fall off of roofs and get hurt or die or people who drown. Accidents can happen with high construction work or around water. We have little control over those incidents. We have control over heating technology and if you truly read the AGAR report, you would understand the disparity between what is being sold today and what AGAR recommended.
I will close with a very strong correction, I have "never" suggested that everyone else is stupid, I have used my intimate knowledge of the dangers of gas combustion to warn people of things they would have no other means to know. If you are an accountant or a stock broker, why would you be aware of CO poisoning from Vent-free products?
While your "rant" was long and my reply equally long, I have a technical basis for everything I have ever written, while you only have an emotional basis for your "rant". Unless you can read the AGAR report from 1996/7 and understand their recommendations, you have no basis for your emotional "rant". Whereas, I lived through that period and I have continued the fight to ban something that kills innocent people.
Regards,
The Gasman
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Aug 29 '09
7:27 pm PDT
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Re: Re: (Reply to this comment)
by ginzo
Vent free One Liners (Reply to this comment)
by _vf_one_liner
I have despised vent free heaters from day one, but we sell a lot of them. I make sure everyone who buys one knows what they are getting into. I occasionally use some of these one liners, if the customer seems receptive. Feel free to be creative and add to the list:
If you liked kerosene, you’ll LOVE unvented gas.
If you’re not supposed to sleep with a vent-free appliance, why would you want to be around it when you’re awake?
OR…
If you can’t trust a vent-free appliance enough to sleep with it, why should you trust it when you’re awake?
Vent-free appliances are well-known for causing a yellow film on walls, windows and ceilings. What do you suppose your lungs look like?
I’ve never thought it was a good idea to use your house for a chimney.
Room-vented? Lung-filtered!
The real reason vent-free is so popular is that it can be installed by someone with an I.Q of 80.
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Aug 29 '09
10:26 am PDT
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Re: Re: (Reply to this comment)
by ginzo
Ya got to love these NEW guys from some COMPANY
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Aug 29 '09
10:23 am PDT
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Re: (Reply to this comment)
by tcrnge
You're obviously an educated guy, and I admire your crusade for something that you so strongly believe in. However, I'm taking big issue with some of the assumptions that you're making about people who use vent-free fireplaces, particularly in this article (see quotes and responses below).
But first, let me say that I use a vent-free natural gas fireplace and have for decades. My grandmother lived in an old house with vent-free propane space heaters mounted on the walls of almost every room. She lived there her entire life, and she died at age 86 from complications during surgery for a back injury. I can remember going over there as a child during cold weather and every one of those things would be running at full power. She did this for as long as I can remember. When she got older, she had her fireplace converted from woodburning to vent-free because she could no longer carry her own wood from the shed to her patio. She lived with that fireplace (in addition to the propane space heaters) for about a decade before she passed.
I'm not saying that her case is typical, but she sure did live a long and full life with vent-free heaters and a vent-free fireplace, and she never had to deal with any of the problems that you mention so often. I also spent a lot of time at her house while the heaters and fireplace were running, and I seemed to have turned out fine (according to most people). My children are also healthy as can be, and they've been living with my vent-free fireplace for 10, 7, and 5 years.
But I digress. Allow me to address the aforementioned issues I have with your assumptions.
"In the "real world", people don't use these products as supplementary heaters."
I do. Everyone that I know that has a vent-free appliance does. Then again, I try to associate myself with people who have some brains.
"They are used as primary sources of heat in the coldest months."
Not in my household. I have central heating that works quite well. The occasional ice storm will knock out the power for 3 or 4 days at the time, and it sure is nice to turn on the firelogs and not freeze to death. And when we have people over for Christmas parties, we'll open the fireplace damper and let it burn for hours, while creating an incredibly festive atmosphere.
"The installing contractors are not scientists and many are not even aware of sizing guidelines laid out by AGAR in 1996. If they do install permanent ventilation to a room, the home owners plug it up as soon as they leave the house."
Once again, you're making a gross underestimation about people who use these appliances. The technician who installed mine made me aware of the dangers of using the appliance improperly and the reasons that he was having to create those ugly vents in my ceiling and roof. Plus, if he wouldn't have, the city inspector would have raised quite the fuss when he came by after the install. I'm not stupid enough to "plug" the vents - they are there for a reason.
"CO detectors are often installed, only to run dead within a year."
Maybe if you're too big of an irresponsible clown to check them, along with your smoke detectors, every 6 months... I do it when Daylight Saving Time begins and ends.
"All of the warnings and service requirements, inside the installation and operating instructions, have long gone into the recycling bin with the newspapers."
Once again, you're insulting my intelligence. The information that came with the burner unit, along with the info left by the installing contractor, went right into a big folder labeled "Instruction Manuals" in my file cabinet, along with every instruction manual for every other appliance, gadget, and doo-dad in my house. I read it and pull it out every year to go through the maintenance checklist in the back of the manual (by the way, the manual is FULL of warnings, so it's not like they are being all "deceptive" about the safety of the burners). And no, I don't recycle newspapers. They go in the trash.
I've read most of your articles on vent-free appliances, and they are very informative and well-written. But you also fail to give any sort of credit to the thousands of people who use vent-free appliances responsibly. I know that your ultimate goal is to see a ban on vent-free heaters. I also realize that you hang your hat on your statistics of the thousands of people who are admitted to the hospital and hundreds who die yearly from incidents involving gas appliances, but what about the thousands who use them safely and responsibly and don't go to the hospital or die? And why stop there? What about the thousands of people who die from drunk driving? Should we ban alcohol? Should we ban cars? People get sick from breathing chemical vapors. What about banning cleaning chemicals or paint? People fall off of roofs and get hurt or die. Should we ban roofs? People drown. Should we ban water?
I could go on forever. The point, as with anything anyone ever does, is that you should educate yourself as much as possible and make your own decision. And once that decision is made, be responsible enough so that you won't hurt yourself or someone else. Your approach is "Everybody is stupid, I know better, the ends will justify the means, so I'll just scare everybody into not buying these things." I've never agreed with people who use this type of logic.
Rant over. Sorry for the long response.
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Aug 28 '09
8:12 pm PDT
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Vent free One Liners (Reply to this comment)
by _vf_one_liner
I have despised vent free heaters from day one, but we sell a lot of them. I make sure everyone who buys one knows what they are getting into. I occasionally use some of these one liners, if the customer seems receptive. Feel free to be creative and add to the list:
If you liked kerosene, you’ll LOVE unvented gas.
If you’re not supposed to sleep with a vent-free appliance, why would you want to be around it when you’re awake?
OR…
If you can’t trust a vent-free appliance enough to sleep with it, why should you trust it when you’re awake?
Vent-free appliances are well-known for causing a yellow film on walls, windows and ceilings. What do you suppose your lungs look like?
I’ve never thought it was a good idea to use your house for a chimney.
Room-vented? Lung-filtered!
The real reason vent-free is so popular is that it can be installed by someone with an I.Q of 80.
If someone tells you that vent-free appliances don’t smell, there are two possibilities: (1) That person has a serious nose problem, or (2) That person is lying.
Hopefully, the oxygen depletion sensor will shut the appliance down before it shuts you down.
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Jun 22 '07
7:23 pm PDT
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Re: Oh dear (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Comme stai' Bettega,
Although I grew up in an Italian neighbourhood I mainly only learned street slang and unfortunately, that means I can swear better in Italian than I can in English.
A CO detector is a good investment for added protection, but take care when you are operating it, not to close off the room from the rest of the house, so that fresh air can communicate freely with that room and if possible, crack open a window in that room.
Always have a professional service technician clean and check the fireplace and check their credentials to ensure they are properly licensed and know what they are doing.
Never think of the CO detector as your guarantee of safety, they do fail and they do not have much of a reputation after a few years of operation for being reliable.
All the best, I hope your experience with that fireplace is tutto bene or at least molto bene. :-)
Ciao
Gasman
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Mar 13 '07
7:50 am PDT
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Re: Hiya (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hiya Smorg,
Thanks for the kind support. It feels great when I get one convert to vented heaters and fireplaces. You won't regret it, I promise.
Regards,
Gasman
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Mar 13 '07
7:31 am PDT
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Oh dear (Reply to this comment)
by bettega
Vent free fireplace? I think we might have one installed in our house and there are no CO detectors, but usually everyone perks up when it's on and as far as I can recall, we don't turn all red and get headaches.
I should probably invest in one of those devices just to be sure especially since it's been a while since we had it serviced! :0
Thanks for the interesting info, certainly not NH material!
Ciao
Bettega
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Mar 13 '07
4:22 am PDT
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Hiya (Reply to this comment)
by smorg
Well, I'm in an apartment and don't have to deal with this thing yet. Sure glad to read this, tho. Will move back out to the country one day and this review will really come in handy for me. Thanks so much! You're doing a real service to the community, Gasman!
Cheers,
Smorg :o)
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Mar 10 '07
6:06 pm PST
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Re: It must be getting pretty chilly (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hi Howard,
La Mancha is La Mancha, since I have spent a good portion of my life here, February is a welcome break from January and so on. I can take the cold, most of the time.*L*
Thanks for taking time to leave a comment and yes, I will continue to try to tell people about the dangers of vent-free fireplaces.
Best regards,
Gasman
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Feb 11 '07
2:51 pm PST
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It must be getting pretty chilly (Reply to this comment)
by Howard_Creech
up there in La Mancha. Keep warning your readers about vent free Gas Fireplaces.
Howard
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Feb 11 '07
12:03 am PST
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Re: Thanks Gas_man (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hi Mark,
You have no idea how pleased I am by your decision. I'm sure you'll be happier and healthier because of it.
Thanks for leaving the comment.
Regards,
Gasman
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Feb 05 '07
5:08 am PST
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Thanks Gas_man (Reply to this comment)
by michiman1,  in Home and Garden
My wife wanted a vent-free fireplace down in our finished lower level. I listened to the pitch the sales guy gave us and refused to make the purchase... based in great part to your well thought out and knowledgeable reviews.
We may end up with a gas fireplace down there eventually - but you can rest assured it will be a properly vented choice.
Thanks,
Mark
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Feb 04 '07
10:59 am PST
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Re: Re: once again (Reply to this comment)
by ginzo
I'll send ya an email
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Feb 03 '07
11:34 am PST
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Re: once again (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hiya Ginzo,
Thanks for the support. I fully intend to keep up the pressure until something happens.
What are you planning to write about soon?
Regards,
Gasman
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Feb 02 '07
8:04 pm PST
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Re: I loved the swirling peace sign. I'm (Reply to this comment)
by the_gas_man
Hi Jo,
Thanks. I think it's an appropriate symbol for me too. Please feel free to use it. If you want the link to post it, just let me know.
Regards,
Gasman
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Feb 02 '07
8:02 pm PST
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once again (Reply to this comment)
by ginzo
Keep up the great work you do
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Feb 02 '07
7:32 am PST
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I loved the swirling peace sign. I'm (Reply to this comment)
by jo.com
going to try to put it on my page:) jo
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Feb 01 '07
9:57 am PST
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