|
|
|
Comment |
Sorted by
Date Written |
Re: Interesting Essay (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
Pbahr,
I've been thinking about it more this evening, and I think here's how I see the public library part of things.
If a book is removed from a public library, it is saying, "We don't endorse this book. You are still free to read it, but you'll have to work a little harder to do so."
That's different from a community banning the book, which would be not allowing it to be sold and burning copies of it.
Again, that's me, and that's how I view things. Hope that helps you see the other side a little better.
Mark
|
Sep 28 '11
9:58 pm PDT
|
|
Re: Interesting Essay (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
I can certainly see your arguement about government funded libraries pulling a book being a violation of the First Amendment. Of course, since the First Amendment starts out "Congress shall make no law...." is a library board the same thing as Congress? I would argue no, but many people I have respected over the years argue yes.
And this arguement is one reason why I struggle with the public library side of things.
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Mark
|
Sep 28 '11
4:53 pm PDT
|
|
Re: Re: Excellent Essay (Reply to this comment)
by texas-swede
Mark, I think your comment below is an excellent way of saying what I was thinking, so I am repeating it.
"But in my mind, Banned Book Week here in America cheapens stories of true banning form around the world because we are talking about parents objecting to a book for their kids and not about a book being illegal to own."
Thomas
|
Sep 28 '11
4:51 pm PDT
|
|
Interesting Essay (Reply to this comment)
by pbahr
Thanks for a thought-provoking read! You make valid points regarding books that are challenged vs. those banned, especially in the area of the book being age-appropriate. However, I disagree entirely with you when it comes to pulling a book from a public library. True the book is still published and available, however, Public libraries in my state are funded by local government and local taypayers in addition to the funds they receive from state and federal grants. Therefore if they decide a book is indeed "banned", not a limitation of funding to purchase but pull it from the shelves, then I think "government" has stepped over the line. For me, your argument on public libraries only works if there is no taxpayer funding involved in the library. In my mind, that is an encroachment of First Amendment just as much as banning a book from being published. Again, you have a valid argument in terms of funding, but that's not enough. Any library worth it's salt is going to have a well-rounded offering of books and face it, that's going to include challenged or so called banned books. Are you a book banner? Not in my mind. You're an educated and informed reader.
|
Sep 28 '11
4:19 pm PDT
|
|
Re: You bring up many good points. (Reply to this comment)
by pestyside
It has always been my thought to read the books with an interest in why they might have been challenged and to reflect on that. I've wanted this to encourage reviewers to read outside their comfort zone. The week is called Banned Books Week, but it's mostly books that are challenged. Why? The information is out there. How do you feel about it being challenged? It's your opportunity to speak out. I've read a number of books in the process of hosting this out of curiosity. Some have surprised me, a few have been nothing but trash and it would seem that economics would have kept them out of bookstores - who in the world would buy them. I'm not sure I've reviewed all of those - some were too bothersome to finish. Not only have you contributed an interesting essay, but you've initiated the dialogue that I anticipated. This is where it gets interesting.
patsy
|
Sep 28 '11
2:45 pm PDT
|
|
Re: Re: Re: Re: You bring up many good points. (Reply to this comment)
by msiduri
Hi Jennifer--
Reading over my comments, I can see where one might get the idea I thought you might be advocating removing it. My apologies. I knew you weren't, but were hoping for an alternative assignment for your child. Ninth grade, I think, is a bit young for that book, not just because of the sex (which is, frankly, rather tame compared to some of the stuff that's readily available nowadays), but more to the point is the bleakness and the hopelessness I found in it. You know your child the best, and if you find it unsuitable for him or her, I support your decision (as if you needed my support!), as I hope your child's instructor will.
It is not all black and white. There is plenty of grey. Maybe your child will read the book in a few years and find it satisfying. At the same time, I hope that fear of challenging books doesn't have limit teachers to assigning books no more edgy than "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm."
Anyway, my best to you and yours--
Marie
|
Sep 28 '11
2:12 pm PDT
|
|
Re: Re: Re: You bring up many good points. (Reply to this comment)
by jenniferkateab
Hi Mark, Erin, Marie ~
You all made interesting comments about Brave New World. I will be adding my review to Patsy's writeoff as soon as I'm done reading it ~ it is quite challenging for me.
I don't advocate removing it ~ I just question the choice for 9th graders (it is an honors class, btw). I realize there are many more provocative books in their library, and it's not like kids aren't already exposed to over-the-top media on a daily basis. I am not very successful as a censor, nor do I wish to totally censor what my kids read or see. That would be unrealistic, and at some point we all grow up and realize the good, bad and ugly in our world.
My gut feeling is that it's better to confront and discuss that which makes us uncomfortable and bring out the "whys", than to avoid it at all costs. (I'm not talking about blatant pornography and the like -- I would like to see that disappear!)
This topic certainly brings much to the table for discussion and sharing ideas.
~Jennifer
|
Sep 28 '11
10:45 am PDT
|
|
Re: Re: You bring up many good points. (Reply to this comment)
by msiduri
I probably should have gotten smart and linked the essay and mentioned that it was written for Banned Books Week 2008: http://www.epinions.com/content_5244625028
You've said a lot of the same things I said. Kids reading anything is better than kids reading nothing, and no one is going to confuse these books with great literature, but they are fun. Some of them were downright creepy, and might be a bit much for some kids. But this is where parents come in. I don't think they'd be appropriate for classroom reading, but could certainly work for book reports or some such.
Regarding "Brave New World," I have read it. Ninth grade, IHMO, might be a bit young, and I can understand a parent's reluctance to have his or her child read it, but an alternative project might be better than simply removing the book altogether.
Just my 2 cents worth...
Marie
|
Sep 28 '11
8:39 am PDT
|
|
Re: You bring up many good points. (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
You know, I read a few of the Goosebumps books. I didn't think they were that scary or well written, but if they are getting kids to read, I'm not going to complain.
Then again, I could see how some parents would object to them. They probably would have kept me up nights as a kid, so my parents would have been understandably upset to find a teacher reading them to the class.
As you probably picked up on, I struggle with taking books like this out of a library completely. It's more the classroom where I think parents should have some say, even if it just means their child gets an alternative for a little while (which is what appears to happen most of the time).
Mark
|
Sep 27 '11
4:04 pm PDT
|
|
Re: Re: I've always wondered (Reply to this comment)
by bilbopooh
The Giver is a book that I think has a lot of similarities to Brave New World but is geared toward a much younger audience. I read that for a ninth grade class and BNW for 11th grade; that might be a good one to suggest as an alterative if you decide to go that route.
Erin
|
Sep 27 '11
4:01 pm PDT
|
|
Re: ... (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
It does encourage me to hear you look at these books with an eye to why they are controversial. It's so much easier to hide behind slogans or gut reactions, but it's the hard work of thinking and talking through stuff that makes them truly valuable.
So, how this for a slogan? "Read controversial books and think about them." Yeah, I don't think that will catch on. Not catchy enough.
Mark
|
Sep 27 '11
3:59 pm PDT
|
|
Re: I've always wondered (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
You know, I've never read Brave New World, so I've always wondered what the big deal is about it. Now you've made me curious to see how those themes play out. I can understand your concern for your 9th grader. Hopefully, the teacher is open to dialoging with you about the book and any potential substitutions.
Mark
|
Sep 27 '11
3:55 pm PDT
|
|
You bring up many good points. (Reply to this comment)
by msiduri
I wrote an essay about (forgive me) the "Goosebumps" series of books for kids that were popular some years ago. I agree that parents are the ultimate arbiters of what their children should read, but (as I said in the essay), I have a bit more of a problem with them deciding what the kids down the block should read.
And I agree, there should be dialogue, not slogans, when settling these issues.
Thanks for your thoughtful essay.
Marie
|
Sep 27 '11
11:38 am PDT
|
|
... (Reply to this comment)
by befus
Mark, so many good points here, especially about all of those "gray areas" that don't work easily into slogans. Agreed that the sloganeering can get tiresome, when what we really need is good civil discourse about books that are challenged (and why and how).
And that's actually one reason why I love the banned books write-off that Patsy hosts here each year. It gives me a chance to write -- honestly and intelligently, I hope -- about frequently challenged books, to look at them for what they are and to try to understand what people (be they parents, teachers, or others) may object to. Wrestling with such books in a forum where others can respond and converse feels like a good thing to do!
And there are so many conversations that could spring from this topic, from parental responsibility for education and formation to how to teach challenging (and challenged) books that have become classics.
Thanks for the thoughtful essay.
Beth
|
Sep 27 '11
11:13 am PDT
|
|
I've always wondered (Reply to this comment)
by jenniferkateab
I've always wondered what the banned books list was all about, but never took the time to investigate it. I happen to agree with your position. I don't think parents should be ostracized for questioning what is taught in their child's classroom. While there is a broad spectrum of what parents find appropriate, I appreciate that you disarmed the "slippery slope" argument.
I sometimes question the choices that my kids' teachers make for reading and movies in the classroom. For example, my son's history teacher showed part of a "Family Guy" episode for no clear reason, and did not inform us about it (my son came home echoing the main character's bizarre language).
Also, he will be reading Brave New World, which is about a futuristic Utopian Society, and which extolls promiscuity and drug use; and is written in a provocative manner I find inappropriate for 9th graders. I will be asking the teacher about it ~ maybe I will be put on a list of questioning parents?
I am so glad you advocate starting a dialogue. Only through respectful discussion will we ever understand each others' fears, concerns and opinions. Why must everything be a battle? It seems that in politics and "culture wars" some prefer name calling and labeling to actual discussion. I hope that librarians, parents, administrators and teachers will read your essay and discuss it!
Jennifer
|
Sep 27 '11
10:11 am PDT
|
|
Re: Excellent Essay (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
And that is truly banning books, something you will always find me against. And I'm sure it was very scary, too.
But in my mind, Banned Book Week here in America cheapens stories of true banning form around the world because we are talking about parents objecting to a book for their kids and not about a book being illegal to own.
And yes, not all banned books are good. I wouldn't go so far as to call for them to be banned, but I certainly don't think they should be defended as good literature, either. Honestly, if they were dropped from classes, they'd probably be forgotten quickly.
Mark
|
Sep 27 '11
9:20 am PDT
|
|
Excellent Essay (Reply to this comment)
by texas-swede
I've been searched, put against a wall for three hours, and interrogated, and had machines gun pointed at me simply for possessing one Russian Bible in Soviet. The Bible is still banned around the world. There are also examples of completely innocent and harmless books that are banned sometimes for the most despicable reasons. The world is full of book bans that are real book bans.
Calling a book challenged for a reading assignment “banned” is just silly. On the contrary requiring students to read books against their will and against their parents will is a violation of their freedoms, not the other way around.
Regarding the popular phrase “a book banned is a book worth reading”: There are banned books that are nothing but moronic hateful garbage. I don’t think a ban (a real ban) is the right way to handle that case but it doesn’t make them worth reading. All banned books are NOT worth reading, and that includes some of the ones that are banned for real.
I think challenged books are fine for a write off but (otherwise I would be a hypocrite) but some of the claims made by librarians around banned book week are out of touch and seem to be used to silence people rather than promote freedom. I am glad someone finally brought it up. Excellent Essay!
Thomas
|
Sep 27 '11
9:19 am PDT
|
|
Re: Mark (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
I learned something about myself while writing the essay. I learned that I'm not opposed to a week spent reading and discussing banned and challenged books as long as we are willing to actually discuss the content of the books honestly and not attempt to lable those we disagree with. I think it's the labling that bothers me the most.
Thank you for the compliment and including this.
And I've always found that my gut is right when I'm conflicted about something. If you really aren't sure, review it. That's how I often learn what I think about something. That's happened with more than a few reviews of mine.
Mark
|
Sep 26 '11
9:14 pm PDT
|
|
Mark (Reply to this comment)
by pestyside
I've been waiting since the start for an articulate voice from the "other" side of this discussion. Parents should be able to control what their children read and see (movies), but in my opinion a small group should not ban what all children should see or read. It's parental choices. Thanks for writing this, and yes, I'm including it although I will set it apart from the list but only because it's not a book review, it's an essay. I'm currently struggling with a book where I'm not quite sure how to respond but I know what my gut is saying.
|
Sep 26 '11
5:03 pm PDT
|
|
Re: Very Well Stated (Reply to this comment)
by carstairs38
I guess the thing that bothers me the most about Banned Book Week is that I feel it is going against those who want to voice concerns at any level at all. Yeah, there are plenty of areas where I would be in agreement with the ALA on the issue, but they seem to lump everyone in together, which makes it hard to note the gray areas.
Thanks for reading and leaving your thoughts.
Mark
|
Sep 26 '11
4:22 pm PDT
|
|
Very Well Stated (Reply to this comment)
by bilbopooh
And no, I wouldn't call you a "book banner." I do think everyone should be free to voice concerns about books; I'm just not big on books being blanketly forbidden. That said, I don't think kids should be forced to read something if it's something they or their parents seriously object to.
When I was in 11th grade, there was a book that we read in English class, and my teacher told us right off the bat that some of us might find it offensive and that if any of us objected to it, to speak to him privately and he would provide an alternate assignment and no one else would need to know about it. As far as I know, I Was the only one who took him up on it. I appreciated his openness to objections and providing an out for students that wouldn't leave them feeling humiliated.
Years later, now that I've been a bit desensitized to harsh language and violence, I've sometimes wondered if I ought to give that book a try. There have been times when I expected to hate something and ended up really liking it despite objectionable elements. At the time, though, I think it was the right call for me.
As you say, a civil dialogue would be a good idea. It would help people to discuss the ups and downs of certain books without bashing either viewpoint. I guess that can be tough to do sometimes when people are passionate...
Anyway, nice alternate perspective.
Erin
|
Sep 26 '11
3:49 pm PDT
|
|
|
|
