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Why is everyone freaking out?
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antastic Posted: May 29 '08,  9:18 am           
Reviews written: 1
Member since: Nov 10 '07
Post: 187481
RE: what's wrong with being concerned?

Quote: Penguinlady


Nothing takes nine years to fix, if people are really and truly attempting to do so. We got to the moon in less than that.

Margaret


I agree with you 100%.
   
scmrak Posted: May 29 '08,  9:27 am (Updated: May 29 '08,  9:29 am)           
Reviews written: 1366
Member since: Sep 27 '00
Post: 187484
RE: what's wrong with being concerned?

Quote: Penguinlady
At risk of being branded with the dreaded "n" word, I must point out that the problems with the catalog - enormous duplication, inclusions of inappropriate items in a hit list, inability to search by more than one criterion at a time, and general inability of the system to find stuff in the database - have existed at least since I joined, a few months after the site was born. That's going on NINE years.
Margaret, you're so N************! (actually, it's nice to see someone deflecting the death rays before they get to me...)

Yes, the database has always been less-than-perfect and the search engine has always been... sucky. Those of us who've worked with gigantic datanases cobbled together from multiple data sources have always been more forgiving of the former than those who view the database as a giant Excel spreadsheet. The weakness of the search engine has always been problematic, though with the huge variety of items in a polyglot database such as this, I don't see it as likely that some of the things you request could ever be built. It's the same thing with the frequent request for a global SAP tool: the vast differences between a Snickers Bar and a Hitachi Power Miter Box make it ridiculously complex to try to program a site-wide tool for such things.

---------digresssion alert------------

By way of example, when filling out the forms for a review of some item that quickly disappeared into the black hole known as "Home & Garden > Tools & Accessories," I accidentally hit the "BACK" button. The resulting page was a list of, IIRC, 59 drop-down boxes asking about the product, including (again, IIRC) 19 different drop-downs asking about durability. BI-ZARRE!

And no, I couldn't duplicate it.

-----------end digression---------------

Point being, however, that I don't think I know of anyone who wouldn't rather have the catalog and search engine of October 27, 2007, back up and running (with the possible exception of the folks who have reviewed several hundred different teas).

   
pambo Posted: May 29 '08,  9:29 am           
Reviews written: 454
Member since: Jan 08 '00
Post: 187485
Not Good Enough

Well, there are a lot of good thoughts here. I, too, have been with the site for years, and for years, there have been multiple tech problems. But until recently, I've never had reviews vanish.

I've had two disappear in the last month, both on the very day they were published. One has been gone nearly a month (April 30). (I can see a piece of it on a Google cache page but only about 5 lines.) The other went up and then vanished Tuesday. The one missing the longest shows the book in the catalogue and seems to allow me to write a new review and I'm tempted to do so. The second one says the item doesn't exist in the catalog at all. Both were reviews where I'd flagged the authors or PR houses (I do that every once in a while) and now they can't be seen.

I understand mistakes and the corporate issues but honesty and communication go a long way. Telling us that the search engine is improving or that things are "known problems" is infuriating. Some explanation on the site itself would help a lot and trying to fix problems rather than generate a huge pile of new reviews would seem to be another.

I've already said on my profile page that I'm going to be taking down 100 of my reviews, most of which are the only ones on that item, and will post them elsewhere because I simply no longer have faith in epinions ever getting this fixed. I'm tired of working hard to produce for Epinions, only to have my work vanish and no slightest bit of courtesy of a response when I ask what has happened to them.

   
Penguinlady Posted: May 29 '08,  9:47 am (Updated: May 29 '08,  9:49 am)           
Reviews written: 627
Member since: Dec 14 '99
Post: 187490
RE: Not Good Enough

Your last paragraph is the one I've been fearing. We've already lost a slew of our finest writers, for a variety of reasons, not necessarily related to the problems under discussion. So I've been dreading the almost inevitable loss of even more due to problems that don't really have to exist, or that are fixable.

There has to be a reason for people to continue to post here; one of the few things I remember from Psych 101 is that people perform for reward, however they define that. Either we get paid for our work, or we take satisfaction in knowing that X number of people have read and enjoyed or benefited from it.

When the system is so wonky that hits don't count, leading to loss of IS, or worse yet, our hard work disappears into the ether, there is no reward for our efforts. Why should a reasonable person continue to put forth effort on behalf of an entity that doesn't know how to treat him or it, and worse yet, doesn't acknowledge us when things go wrong? There's no payback for our work.

I haven't experienced the loss of my reviews - yet. And I continue to get paid for them. So I'm not going anywhere. But I completely understand why other people are leaving.

I'm not a techie; all I know how to do on a computer is e-mail and writing. But I observe other websites with databases as big as ours, ones that constantly change, probably faster than ours - eBay is the most obvious example - and I wonder why they can do it, but in nine years, we haven't been able to. It IS do-able.

Margaret, sad

   
jps246 Posted: May 29 '08,  11:26 am (Updated: May 29 '08,  11:28 am)           
Reviews written: 850
Member since: Jan 25 '01
moderator in Outdoor Gear, Sporting Goods
Post: 187523
Let me know there's a light at the end of the tunnel

Quote: Penguinlady
Your last paragraph is the one I've been fearing. We've already lost a slew of our finest writers, for a variety of reasons, not necessarily related to the problems under discussion. So I've been dreading the almost inevitable loss of even more due to problems that don't really have to exist, or that are fixable.

I brought this up on the other thread that got deleted, but I just thought it was sad that the sense of community that used to exist on Epinions has slowly ebbed away. I'm not sure if it can all be blamed on the problems since last October, but I'm sure it hasn't helped.

Quote: Penguinlady
I haven't experienced the loss of my reviews - yet. And I continue to get paid for them. So I'm not going anywhere. But I completely understand why other people are leaving.

I haven't lost any reviews either, but I've been hit with the /review/ bug pretty hard on my reviews. I'm not leaving, but I just find it easier to say "eh...I'll skip writing a review today" since for a lot of the stuff I'd review, there's the /review/ bug that will make it invisible and unable to track hits and earn potential IS.

I don't expect the database and the system to ever be perfect, but like Rex said...

Quote: scmrak
I'm well aware of the folly of promising that a site-wide fix will be in place on such-and-such a date. I don't think the membership wants that. OK, they do want that, but it's not a realistic expectation. I think what the general membership would like for now is a sense of whether progress has been made. I assume it has, but it doesn't look that way at times.

Just let me know there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Jeff
   
scmrak Posted: May 29 '08,  12:26 pm (Updated: May 29 '08,  12:36 pm)           
Reviews written: 1366
Member since: Sep 27 '00
Post: 187551
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: Penguinlady
But I observe other websites with databases as big as ours, ones that constantly change, probably faster than ours - eBay is the most obvious example - and I wonder why they can do it, but in nine years, we haven't been able to. It IS do-able.
Well, your nunship, I was addressing specifically your suggestion that the search engine allow you to search on multiple criteria. A most laudable trait in a search engine, to be sure, and one that I too would love to see.

However, you mention eBay - so on a whim, I wandered over to look at their search engine. Now someone who spends a lot of time on eBay (I've been there maybe ten times myself) can correct me, but it looks as though the eBay search paradigm is the same as that used by the SdC search engine: the "drill-down" or "refine your results" model.

None of which doesn't mean that the eBay search engine isn't more efficent, faster, and more accurate than the SdC search engine implemented on Epinions... It had better be better, though: eBay has two - and probably three - orders of magnitude more people working on it than does EPs.


ETA I should've spent more time at eBay - I see what you mean about selection criteria. The orders of magnitude comparison still comes into play, however...
   
jenniferkateab Posted: May 29 '08,  12:45 pm (Updated: May 29 '08,  12:47 pm)           
Reviews written: 191
Member since: Oct 22 '07
Post: 187570
RE: Not Good Enough

Forgive me for entering the discussion late, but I can't help but wonder why they don't just switch to a different search paradigm, at least on the initial search.

For example, when a user types in a book name or author, why doesn't the search engine just do a "google" type search on the entire database (or at least more than one key field) and then return a list of possibilities? Then, after the user gets to the right area of the database, a drilldown by feature or category could be initiated.

My experience is that, in many cases, Epinions search gives you completely irrelevant products to your search critera, while ignoring tons of products with nearly identical key words. In other words, I don't think the search function is reaching all the relevant areas/fields in the database. Either that, or it goes wild and gives you products you completely don't expect, like all the r-rated stuff.

I'm hope my idea is clearer than mud, but I don't know how google can search the entire internet and return thousands of relevant URLs, but Epinions search comes up blank or wrong again and again.

Just curious ~ Jennifer

   
ladyconsumer Posted: May 29 '08,  12:54 pm           
Reviews written: 637
Member since: Jul 11 '05
Post: 187577
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: scmrak


ETA I should've spent more time at eBay - I see what you mean about selection criteria. ...



Good thing you added this - I was going to have to step in and strongly disagree. Now you've saved me the trouble.
   
scmrak Posted: May 29 '08,  12:56 pm           
Reviews written: 1366
Member since: Sep 27 '00
Post: 187578
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: jenniferkateab
My experience is that, in many cases, Epinions search gives you completely irrelevant products to your search critera, while ignoring tons of products with nearly identical key words. In other words, I don't think the search function is reaching all the relevant areas/fields in the database. Either that, or it goes wild and gives you products you completely don't expect, like all the r-rated stuff.

I'm hope my idea is clearer than mud, but I don't know how google can search the entire internet and return thousands of relevant URLs, but Epinions search comes up blank or wrong again and again.

Just curious ~ Jennifer
At a guess, I'd say the root of the problem is that SdC acts as a data aggregator: the database comprises information collected from hundreds if not thousands of sources. What WidgetsBeWe considers a keyword about their product may be radically different from what Grommets'n'Stuff supplies. The critical weakness of the search engine appears to be that it has criteria that are simultaneously too loose - returning a hit because your keyword is buried in the manufacturer's blurb - and too strict - failing to query the product names.

However, seems to me that the integration of the SdC catalog and the company's search routines precludes the implementation of a new search engine without a database rebuild. If you were watching back in October, you may remember that the SP step was intended, in part, to improve search results... talk about your unintended consequences, eh?
   
scmrak Posted: May 29 '08,  1:03 pm (Updated: May 29 '08,  1:04 pm)           
Reviews written: 1366
Member since: Sep 27 '00
Post: 187580
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: ladyconsumer
Good thing you added this - I was going to have to step in and strongly disagree. Now you've saved me the trouble.
Again, I plead ignorance of - or, more accurately, disinterest in - eBay, but it doesn't look to me like the "search on multiple categories" tool is implemented site-wide. I found it looking at the 2002 honda CR-V, but I don't see it anywhere when looking at KitchenAid Food Processors... on the small electric appliance search, all I had was multiple refinement steps.

On that admittedly extremely limited sample, it looks as though the implementation has something to do with the potential profit to eBay from brokering your sale... putting the effort where the money is, so to speak.
   
jenniferkateab Posted: May 29 '08,  1:09 pm           
Reviews written: 191
Member since: Oct 22 '07
Post: 187581
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: scmrak
At a guess, I'd say the root of the problem is that SdC acts as a data aggregator: the database comprises information collected from hundreds if not thousands of sources. What WidgetsBeWe considers a keyword about their product may be radically different from what Grommets'n'Stuff supplies. The critical weakness of the search engine appears to be that it has criteria that are simultaneously too loose - returning a hit because your keyword is buried in the manufacturer's blurb - and too strict - failing to query the product names.

However, seems to me that the integration of the SdC catalog and the company's search routines precludes the implementation of a new search engine without a database rebuild. If you were watching back in October, you may remember that the SP step was intended, in part, to improve search results... talk about your unintended consequences, eh?


Yes, I agree it's ironic ~ It's also clearer to me now :)

I also thought that, since Google works relatively well to find products in the epinions database, Epi-engineers could just integrate a google search engine right onsite to save people the trouble of going offsite to find things.

I do appreciate your feedback ~ Jennifer
   
pvreditor Posted: May 29 '08,  1:37 pm           
Reviews written: 405
Member since: May 31 '02
moderator in Cars, Home & Garden, Musical Equipment
Post: 187592
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: jenniferkateab
I also thought that, since Google works relatively well to find products in the epinions database, Epi-engineers could just integrate a google search engine right onsite to save people the trouble of going offsite to find things.

This has come up in the forums often and it was addressed a couple years ago. Sorry if I can't point you to the right thread but my memory is that we were told that Google's search technology is expensive and Epinions wanted to have it's own home-grown search. In other words, we can't go to that particular Disneyland because it costs too much.

--Bob
   
roheblius Posted: May 29 '08,  1:51 pm           
Reviews written: 601
Member since: Dec 13 '99
moderator in Music
Post: 187593
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: pvreditor
This has come up in the forums often and it was addressed a couple years ago. Sorry if I can't point you to the right thread but my memory is that we were told that Google's search technology is expensive and Epinions wanted to have it's own home-grown search. In other words, we can't go to that particular Disneyland because it costs too much.

--Bob


The more important point, at least from my perspective is that Google is good at finding reviews because there's lots of content to grab from. But Shopping.com makes money from products, so it would be counterproductive.

For a member's only search, I think Google would be right on. For a shopping search, not so much.
   
rudixeno Posted: May 29 '08,  3:03 pm           
Reviews written: 196
Member since: Nov 14 '05
moderator in Home & Garden
Post: 187603
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: roheblius
The more important point, at least from my perspective is that Google is good at finding reviews because there's lots of content to grab from. But Shopping.com makes money from products, so it would be counterproductive.

For a member's only search, I think Google would be right on. For a shopping search, not so much.


I'm not sure I get that. If Google leads you to the review, doesn't that get the shopper to the shopping links too?

Rudi
   
roheblius Posted: May 29 '08,  3:11 pm (Updated: May 29 '08,  3:12 pm)           
Reviews written: 601
Member since: Dec 13 '99
moderator in Music
Post: 187608
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: rudixeno
I'm not sure I get that. If Google leads you to the review, doesn't that get the shopper to the shopping links too?

Rudi


That's not the page we want them to go directly to.

We want them to go to the product page where they can buy directly or choose to read reviews.

The product page is put together to be the place shoppers want to go that gives them the most options.
   
kristinafh Posted: May 29 '08,  8:51 pm           
Reviews written: 1344
Member since: Dec 17 '99
Post: 187655
RE: Not Good Enough

Quote: pvreditor
This has come up in the forums often and it was addressed a couple years ago. Sorry if I can't point you to the right thread but my memory is that we were told that Google's search technology is expensive and Epinions wanted to have it's own home-grown search. In other words, we can't go to that particular Disneyland because it costs too much.

--Bob


The google search appliance (or GSA as we call it) is NOT all that expensive.

I know this first hand.

P.S. There's a reason that people don't do custom coding anymore. It's reinventing the wheel - that's out there 100 times over.
   
kristinafh Posted: May 29 '08,  8:54 pm           
Reviews written: 1344
Member since: Dec 17 '99
Post: 187657
RE: what's wrong with being concerned?

Quote: joyfulgirl91
What if that's true (and I don't think it's true that nobody is working on it, but I have no trouble believing not much time is spent)? Could that not imply that these issues are not actually as important to the site's profitability as members think they are? Surely engineering hours are prioritized a certain way for a reason.


shrugs

Your guess is as good as mine.

Which makes my quote - Mediocrity can be extremely cost-effective for companies - all the more applicable.
   
kristinafh Posted: May 29 '08,  9:00 pm (Updated: May 29 '08,  9:00 pm)           
Reviews written: 1344
Member since: Dec 17 '99
Post: 187660
RE: what's wrong with being concerned?

Quote: scmrak
I concur with my fellow child of the fort. "Fort-sister," as it were...

However, I think it's diagnosed; and - to continue with the medical metaphor - the team is hard at work on the treatment protocols.

Where things seem wonky is that the general membership doesn't know what the status of all these bugs and their respective fixes is. When EPs staffers involved in the bug-fix effort request documentation of an occurrence of perhaps the most common insectoid critters to afflict the site, said request coming seven months after what EPs calls "SP" and what the members call "Black Tuesday," it does not engender confidence. Rather that they say, "Yes, we know about that one and have a handle on how to fix it."

I'm well aware of the folly of promising that a site-wide fix will be in place on such-and-such a date. I don't think the membership wants that. OK, they do want that, but it's not a realistic expectation. I think what the general membership would like for now is a sense of whether progress has been made. I assume it has, but it doesn't look that way at times.

The so-called soft-productization was clearly a monumental kludge; unfortunately one that could not be rolled back. With the core asset of the site in such a condition, I can see where the engineering staff would of necessity tread very carefully when attempting to right the situation. Better, I guess that they take the time to get it right than to fix one problem and cause others in the process.


Rex! insert hugs here

Things are just getting worse (to me). And I still don't think things are diagnosed. And sadly enough - we will never see those hits added to our account - ever. Ever.

The 2 reviews I posted in April - they have more ratings than what shows up in my counts. And weirdly enough - the count stops with 31/31. Odd.

With the exception of my Writer's Corner stuff. Which shows continuing inside and outside hits - updated every time I check in (every couple of days).

Seriously.

   
krus54 Posted: May 30 '08,  6:11 am           
Reviews written: 134
Member since: Dec 20 '99
Post: 187696
RE: Why is everyone freaking out?

Quote: roheblius
I don't think so. The goal of IS is the same as it's always been. It's just not working well because of all the other issues.


What other issues? How many years has it been that the search feature hasn't worked? A whole new rebuilding effort was done and there are still reviews of mine that cannot be found via the search (a hotel review as one example). I think after years of having this problem, not fixing it is inexcusable.

Now some people earn a lot of money on this site. They are in the minority. Most of the members spend time writing for what is basically free and eBay makes good money from Epinions.com members because of this. Members (and especially the ones with tons of reviews) are getting cheated out of some big IS as well. Yet you don't see anyone from shopping.com making any big strides to correct the problems.

Here's my speculation: eBay and shopping.com are depending on the "community feel" and socializing within the boards and comment sections to get away having people contribute to eBay's billions of dollars and pay us a few pennies. There's a lot of people who "depend" on this site for socializing. I speculate that management will also feel that as long as there is a core group of people who have too much invested to leave, there's no hurry to get around to fixing all the bugs on the site (like the search engine).

I'm guessing also with the departure of Garrett and Andy that the staff is down to even more of a pretty minimal level so there will be other problems and issues cropping up which will take a while to resolve.

I also wonder whether the 10-4-10 is a way to attract back people who have left or who are thinking of leaving to write for AC or Viewpoints or other sites which are competing for our content.

Again, as I mentioned above, all this is speculation. I'm not stating fact.

Dave
   
krus54 Posted: May 30 '08,  6:17 am           
Reviews written: 134
Member since: Dec 20 '99
Post: 187697
RE: Other sites

Quote: sageandsavory
Do the other sites have message boards for the members?


Yes they do
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