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| underdawg |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:05 pm |
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Reviews written: 228 Member since: Jul 23 '04
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RE: hmm..
Quote: phungus We need to get some of the Electronics leads in here to look at this.
You're assuming Leads would never do this. |
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| ladyconsumer |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:16 pm |
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Reviews written: 637 Member since: Jul 11 '05
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: underdawg They are duplicate reviews in my opinion. If a person has two different colored iPods, they should review either just one, or write two different reviews from scratch.
People are getting caught up on the difference between "write from scratch" vs. "copy & paste". To me, it doesn't matter. Whatever method one uses to get the words on the page is OK with me.
In this case, if the person received both iPods on the same day, (say, two people gave them as birthday presents), and both iPods are the same (except for the color) and both are in the database, just how different do those two reviews need to be? The "back-story" is exactly the same! (Got this iPod for my birthday). The real "opinion" should be exactly the same. So, what needs to be different to make it Helpful? Would it better if the person changed "birthday" to "christmas" so that the "story" is different? Why should they lie?
Mona
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| B_Campbell |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:18 pm |
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Reviews written: 204 Member since: Mar 28 '00
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How long can we drag this out?
I'm really surprised that the discussion went this long. Mostly because I find it a really simple issue and a bit because it didn't devolve into off-topicness yet.
Here's what gets me: the general consensus when someone deletes and reposts a review to erase negative comments/ratings is that the review deserves a NH because the user is "gaming the system" (stick with me here).
Now, there is no Epinions rule or FAQ that forbids deleting and reposting a review (we've already established that it generally doesn't fall under the "one per product" rule). In fact, it's necessary in some situations, like turning an express review into a regular review. So the only reason the offending reviews get NH's is because concientious raters use their judgement and common sense to determine the user's likely intent.
In short, what I'm trying to say is that we already have a precedent for rating NH if we think someone is gaming the system.
Excuse my langauge, but OMGZWTFBBQ!!LOLZ1!1! Why are we discussing this at length? We already have an answer; if we reasonably think the user is trying to game the system, give 'em an NH already!
There's one clear example that I can remember, and I believe it was resolved by the user removing one of the offending reviews. Two iPod reviews were written, one for black, one for white. What threw up flags for those is that they both said exactly the same thing -- down to the comparisons of the colors, so neither had any "original content" -- but an attempt was made to mix text around as if people wouldn't notice (as I remember it). It caused something of a stir because it seemed like an attempt to game the system on a high-profile, high-earnings product.
The point here is, it's usually obvious when someone's trying to take advantage of multiple listings for the same product. Let's use our heads more (for thinking) and our fingers less (for typing) here. |
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| ladyconsumer |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:23 pm (Updated: Mar 08 '06, 1:24 pm) |
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Reviews written: 637 Member since: Jul 11 '05
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: B_Campbell Why are we discussing this at length? We already have an answer; if we reasonably think the user is trying to game the system, give 'em an NH already!
I think the reason we're discussing it, is that we're not all clear on what behavior is "gaming" and what is "reasonable use of the database as it stands today, even if we don't like the database as it stands today". Sure, if we all agreed there was "gaming" I think we'd all agree to NH. But it's whether the behavior is "gaming" or not, that's being discussed. |
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| underdawg |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:25 pm |
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Reviews written: 228 Member since: Jul 23 '04
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: ladyconsumer Why should they lie?
Do people think in reviews? Surely people can think of something different to say or more than one angle to look at a product. Do all reviews have to be written in templates? I'm not asking anyone to lie here, just to make double the effort to get double the IS and double the hits.
It's not fair to the writer. The consumer may not give a crap but I think writers should sometimes be appreciated around these parts also. And two unique reviews wouldn't be harmful to the consumer in any way either; in fact they'd probably like it if they were reading reviews on every single color of some product. |
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| scmrak |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:35 pm (Updated: Mar 08 '06, 1:47 pm) |
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Reviews written: 1366 Member since: Sep 27 '00
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: B_Campbell Now, there is no Epinions rule or FAQ that forbids deleting and reposting a review (we've already established that it generally doesn't fall under the "one per product" rule)... No, you haven't: in what universe does one + one = one?
While deleting a review to remove unwanted low ratings is certainly gaming the system, what reason (other than the "you-can't-upgrade-ER-to-real-review" that started the thread) can one conceive for deleting and reposting that isn't gaming? 'Cause I changed my mind? Think on this: everyone in the process of doing actual research (oooh-la-la!) who might see the updated review from that point forward will never know the difference. 'Cause I rewrote it and want everyone to re-rate so it sits higher in the listings? I should've done it right in the first place. Any attempt to get your opinion to climb higher in the listings will be construed gaming the system by someone, and they'll often be right.
Quote: underdawg Do people think in reviews? Surely people can think of something different to say or more than one angle to look at a product. Do all reviews have to be written in templates? I'm not asking anyone to lie here, just to make double the effort to get double the IS and double the hits... I have written and posted reviews of two competing - not identical, but competing (and I do own them both) products - that are identical for ~500 words and then completely different for ~500...
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rex |
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| underdawg |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:39 pm |
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Reviews written: 228 Member since: Jul 23 '04
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: scmrak No, you haven't: in what universe does one + one = one?
I have written and posted reviews of two competing - not identical, but competing (and I do own them both) products - that are identical for ~500 words and then completely different for ~500...
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rex
Are the epinions rules ever changed or are they the same as they were when they first made the site? I, for one, think it could use a few amendments and clarifications. |
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| ladyconsumer |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:49 pm |
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Reviews written: 637 Member since: Jul 11 '05
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: underdawg With all the talk about consumer helpfulness, one needs to keep in mind us, the writers as well. We write the reviews, and our sense that the system is being gamed, that IS is unfair, is important too.
...
people are more likely to write reviews when they feel they are fairly compensated (i.e. we might not get a lot of IS, but we want it to be fair). People are more likely to tell their friends about this site if they think the system is fair.
You make a point here that I'd not considered before. Thanks for bringing this up and showing another side of the story.
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| scmrak |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 1:57 pm |
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Reviews written: 1366 Member since: Sep 27 '00
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: underdawg Are the epinions rules ever changed or are they the same as they were when they first made the site? I, for one, think it could use a few amendments and clarifications. The following dates to early 2000:
"5. Can I write multiple opinions about a single product?
No. A member may only write one opinion per product or service. If you wish to add to your opinion on the product, however, you can edit your review at any time.
6. Can I post the same opinion multiple times-in different categories, for example?
No. Each product or service must have a unique opinion. Although many products may contain similarities (for example, among multiple sets of knives by a single manufacturer, the same text could apply to several sets of knives), there should be a minimum of 100 words of unique text in each review."
So I'd say things don't change much - they're still using the knives example...
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rex
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| gamblin_man |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 2:42 pm (Updated: Mar 08 '06, 3:00 pm) |
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Reviews written: 409 Member since: Apr 08 '01
 in Home & Garden |
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: underdawg Are the epinions rules ever changed or are they the same as they were when they first made the site? I, for one, think it could use a few amendments and clarifications.
Rex brought out an earlier FAQ that did not have the "compare the products" admonition. This was not quite consistent with the site usage policy initiated in March 2003. copied below is the policy as stated in august 2004.
"Detailed Site Usage Policy
Publishing the same review more than once. The only exception to this policy is that if the review compares products, it may be listed on two products."
The following is from the latest Site Rules we all agree to abide by as a condition of membership as opposed to answers to frequently asked questions. It matches the current FAQ.
"Detailed Site Usage Policy
Publishing the same review more than once. A review may only be published more than once if the review compares two products and there is at least a 100 word difference between the two reviews."
Epinions currently expects raters to look at multiple products with a similar review from the same author and determine if they meet this rule. If not, a NH, and possibly an abuse report, is expected.
Larry
Edited to add previous rule |
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| pogomom |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 2:43 pm |
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Reviews written: 193 Member since: Dec 20 '99
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Just read the first few and the last few posts on this extremely long thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been posted.
Quote: scmrak The following dates to early 2000:
"5. Can I write multiple opinions about a single product?
No. A member may only write one opinion per product or service. If you wish to add to your opinion on the product, however, you can edit your review at any time.
6. Can I post the same opinion multiple times-in different categories, for example?
No. Each product or service must have a unique opinion. Although many products may contain similarities (for example, among multiple sets of knives by a single manufacturer, the same text could apply to several sets of knives), there should be a minimum of 100 words of unique text in each review."
So I'd say things don't change much - they're still using the knives example...
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rex
More recently updated:
The final point under Detailed Site Usage Policy:
http://www.epinions.com/help/faq/show_~faq_site_usage
"Publishing the same review more than once. A review may only be published more than once if the review compares two products and there is at least a 100 word difference between the two reviews."
There's also some interesting reading in the User Agreement, too.
http://www.epinions.com/help/show_~useragreement
One thing to remember is we post reviews and place ratings so consumers view the best reviews under each topic or product listing first.
http://www.epinions.com/help/faq/?show=faq_rating
http://www.epinions.com/help/faq/show_~faq_writing
If a review is helpful to the consumer, rate it according to how helpful it is and the amount of detail it contains. Personalities shouldn't come into play when reading and rating reviews.
Instead of giving a Not Helpful rating to someone's review when it may be helpful to someone not interested in the community aspect of Epinions, use your Web of Trust and Block List well.
http://www.epinions.com/help/faq/show_~faq_wot
Most of all, I'm into redundant mode, rate according to how helpful the review was to you. The non-member using the site is not trolling through the Just In pages, they're using the onsite search feature or digging through categories to find the reviews on products they're considering purchasing. Your ratings are important, make sure you're rating the review and not the reviewer.
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| anderclayton |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 5:03 pm |
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Reviews written: 50 Member since: Dec 18 '99
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: pogomom
Instead of giving a Not Helpful rating to someone's review when it may be helpful to someone not interested in the community aspect of Epinions, use your Web of Trust and Block List well.
http://www.epinions.com/help/faq/show_~faq_wot
Most of all, I'm into redundant mode, rate according to how helpful the review was to you. The non-member using the site is not trolling through the Just In pages, they're using the onsite search feature or digging through categories to find the reviews on products they're considering purchasing. Your ratings are important, make sure you're rating the review and not the reviewer.
OK. Here is why I'm so hot on this issue personally. I've actually tried to use the site as a consumer in Electronics on a fair number of occasions (it is the only reason that I set foot in the category) and have run into those exact same cookie cutter styles of reviews (without cutting and pasting) several times. I've also run into the stupid number of multiple listings of products that pretty much discouraged my use of the site for Electronics *at all*.
When I say Electronics is a swamp I'm talking as a consumer, not as a "member." Though I have to say that given the frequency that I use the site in general verses how many reviews I write on the site the "consumer" aspect might be where I am coming from overall.
Ander
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| pearannoyed |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 9:07 pm |
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Reviews written: 197 Member since: Oct 03 '03
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: ladyconsumer Does Eps get most of its products this way... or do they get manually added some other way? If they do come from data feeds, then why are so many missing, and have to be SAPped?
The vast majority of media (music, books and movies) come from feeds. I can't speak to the other categories 'cuz I don't know.
The reason so much stuff needs to get SAPd is because the feeds suck.
Amy |
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| joyfulgirl91 |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 9:17 pm |
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Reviews written: 157 Member since: May 14 '05
in Home & Garden, Pets |
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RE: Advice please?
What about magazines? Do they come in on a feed? |
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| millinocket |
Posted: Mar 08 '06, 9:46 pm |
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Reviews written: 486 Member since: Aug 24 '02
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: vivasuzi I wouldn't post on the same movie, however I disagree with you there. A movie in the theaters may be completely awesome... and then you rent it and it just sucks on DVD. THis is relavant. However, if they users review were the same both times, I would say that is abuse.
Just a note - I think Doc mentioned this somewhere as well - the In Theaters/DVD issue isn't the same. Those listings are merged (okay, supposed to be merged - and most actually are) when the movie comes out on DVD/Video, making them essentially the same product from the get-go. If you write a review of a movie In Theaters, by the time you see it on DVD, your original review should already have rolled into the DVD/Video listing, making another review, no matter how different, a double posting. |
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| B_Campbell |
Posted: Mar 09 '06, 4:26 am |
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Reviews written: 204 Member since: Mar 28 '00
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: ladyconsumer I think the reason we're discussing it, is that we're not all clear on what behavior is "gaming" and what is "reasonable use of the database as it stands today, even if we don't like the database as it stands today". Sure, if we all agreed there was "gaming" I think we'd all agree to NH. But it's whether the behavior is "gaming" or not, that's being discussed.
That's my point. We're never all going to agree, no matter how long we discuss it and how many examples we pull out. In the end, we all have our individual rates and use them as we see fit.
The original question was "how should I rate?" Nobody can really tell anyone else how they should rate. We've all gotta use our instincts and experience to sniff out the good and the bad.
I'll also throw this out there: words like "reasonable use" are what inventive people couch their bad behavior in. If we're going by standards of "reasonable use", then we can throw out personal experience entirely and I can strat writing reviews of products I've never used because hey, as long as they benefit the consumer, right? Hell, who's to say I haven't already? There's your reasonable use. |
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| B_Campbell |
Posted: Mar 09 '06, 4:31 am (Updated: Mar 09 '06, 4:34 am) |
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Reviews written: 204 Member since: Mar 28 '00
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RE: How long can we drag this out?
Quote: scmrak No, you haven't: in what universe does one + one = one?
Rex, bad math. Try one - one + one. I guess there's no subtraction in your universe, but I bet it makes paying the rent easier.
I have seen plenty of legitimate instances of someone deleting and reposting a review, and that's what we're really talking about here. Individual situations and scenarios. We really can't make a blanket statement and say that all re-posts are wrong, or that all copy-paste comparisons are wrong. That's what I'm trying to get at; we have to take these situations individually and rate them as individuals.
Hey, if you want to rate all re-posts NH, go for it! You're within your right to do so, and I'm not trying to say you're wrong for it. It's your rate. But I'm going to take each review as it comes.
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| pearannoyed |
Posted: Mar 09 '06, 8:27 am |
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Reviews written: 197 Member since: Oct 03 '03
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: joyfulgirl91 What about magazines? Do they come in on a feed?
As far as I know they do. |
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| anderclayton |
Posted: Mar 09 '06, 8:54 am |
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Reviews written: 50 Member since: Dec 18 '99
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RE: Advice please?
Quote: millinocket Just a note - I think Doc mentioned this somewhere as well - the In Theaters/DVD issue isn't the same. Those listings are merged (okay, supposed to be merged - and most actually are) when the movie comes out on DVD/Video, making them essentially the same product from the get-go. If you write a review of a movie In Theaters, by the time you see it on DVD, your original review should already have rolled into the DVD/Video listing, making another review, no matter how different, a double posting.
On the other hand, Doc also admitted that the different colored products should be merged. I'll grant that is different than "supposed" to be merged but given how long the Movies category has had some of the titles seperately it is a bit tough to tell the difference.
Ander
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