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Rating challenges on iPod and small devices
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jenniferkateab Original Post: Nov 03 '09,  7:13 am           
Reviews written: 189
Member since: Oct 22 '07
Post: 241503
Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

I recently started reading and rating Epinions reviews using my iTouch. I really like the convenience of not being tied to my computer.

Has anyone else noticed that they would sometimes rate the same review higher or lower when rating on different devices? For example, a shorter review doesn't look quite as short on a small screen, so I seem more inclined to rate higher on reviews that give me all the information I need for a product.

Also, I don't notice formatting inconsistencies as much (like broken lines, etc.) on the iTouch.

Does that make sense? Basically, I had developed a visual method to guide my rating on a PC screen, but the method doesn't work as well on the iTouch.

Just wondering if I'm the only one who has noticed this. If so, I'll go back into the corner...

Jennifer

   
kjell1979 Posted: Nov 03 '09,  7:34 am           
Reviews written: 280
Member since: Jul 30 '01
Post: 241505
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

I don't rate on perceived length. I rate based on actual content and the ability for the reviewer to provide information I would need to make an informed buying decision. Regardless on how big the screen is, a review will either provide enough information and opinion on a product or it won't.

   
jenniferkateab Posted: Nov 03 '09,  7:46 am           
Reviews written: 189
Member since: Oct 22 '07
Post: 241507
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

Quote: kjell1979
I don't rate on perceived length. I rate based on actual content and the ability for the reviewer to provide information I would need to make an informed buying decision. Regardless on how big the screen is, a review will either provide enough information and opinion on a product or it won't.

I agree, I don't use length as a sole aspect for rating, but it was certainly a way of visualizing the volume of helpful information given. (assuming that each paragraph contributed helpful information and is well-written and pithy).

Everyone always says they don't evaluate length when rating, and I agree that quality is infinitely more important than quantity. But there was just a visual aspect of a review I was accustomed to seeing, as one aspect of the rating process, which does not translate to the smaller screen.

That said, if three paragraphs are pithy and full of helpful information about a product, wouldn't they be worth more, or provide more information, than a single, well-written and helpful paragraph? If a student is required to write a five paragraph essay, then one paragraph would not suffice, no matter how well written that paragraph is.

I'm not trying to argue, it's just a quandary that I am wrestling with.
   
mql1208 Posted: Nov 03 '09,  7:52 am           
Reviews written: 297
Member since: Jan 05 '06
Post: 241508
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

Love my I-Touch, but find that it really isn't conducive (at least for me) to a good Epi experience. In other words, I don't bother rating.

My knee jerk reaction? No, it wouldn't make an impact (because I *believe* I'm not influenced by length), BUT, I'm trying to figure out why I can watch a 2 hour movie on the I-Touch, but can't bother rating. Just maybe I am accustomed to a visual method which I-Touch alters.

   
pvreditor Posted: Nov 03 '09,  10:45 am (Updated: Nov 03 '09,  10:46 am)           
Reviews written: 404
Member since: May 31 '02
moderator in Cars, Home & Garden, Musical Equipment
Post: 241516
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

This is an interesting question, Jennifer: Does your perception of something change depending on the medium you use to display the item? I love to read, but lately have been doing more recorded books. Do I like a book more/less if I read it? Or if I listen to it? I don't really know.

I think your observation is valid. To at least some of us, reviews will be subjectively different depending on the way they are displayed. And rating is a subjective process. Epinions might be wise to consider how its content will be displayed on different devices, and how that may affect ratings... and therefore review ordering and IS.

--Bob

   
gamblin_man Posted: Nov 03 '09,  12:10 pm           
Reviews written: 391
Member since: Apr 08 '01
moderator in Home & Garden
Post: 241523
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

Quote: pvreditor
This is an interesting question, Jennifer: Does your perception of something change depending on the medium you use to display the item? I love to read, but lately have been doing more recorded books. Do I like a book more/less if I read it? Or if I listen to it? I don't really know.

I have been reading on Kindle as well as using audiobooks thereon recently. A well narrated (meaning emphasis, etc. the way I would read the words) audiobook is a close second to reading the text on the Kindle. Using the Kindle audio conversion is a distant third; for fiction at least.

Quote: pvreditor
I think your observation is valid. To at least some of us, reviews will be subjectively different depending on the way they are displayed. And rating is a subjective process. Epinions might be wise to consider how its content will be displayed on different devices, and how that may affect ratings... and therefore review ordering and IS.

--Bob

I remember the concern when the format changed for Epinions review presentation. The concern was that the review now seemed shorter. It, apparently, was a justified concern per some anecdotal reports. Those who rated, at least partially, on length began to rate more reviews H until they got used to the change and recalibrated their skimming.

Larry
   
njchicaa Posted: Nov 04 '09,  4:27 am           
Reviews written: 733
Member since: Jun 27 '05
Post: 241565
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

I do a lot of reading/rating on my iPhone. Sure, it is more difficult to read on this thing, but it doesn't affect how I rate things because I am one of the schmucks that reads the entirety of every review I rate. Sometimes shorter ones have lots of good info while longer ones are loaded with filler and have no personal experience included. Appearances and votes based on perceived length can be deceiving.

   
sleeper54 Posted: Nov 04 '09,  12:48 pm           
Reviews written: 494
Member since: Feb 24 '01
Post: 241618
RE: Rating challenges on iPod and small devices

Quote: gamblin_man
--snip--

I remember the concern when the format changed for Epinions review presentation. The concern was that the review now seemed shorter. It, apparently, was a justified concern per some anecdotal reports. Those who rated, at least partially, on length began to rate more reviews H until they got used to the change and recalibrated their skimming.

Larry


.

That is soooo d*mn snarky Larry.


...and I am so d*mn proud of you for saying it.

. . . ...:manhugsforthegrumpyguysmiliemoment:...



...tom...
.
   
Joubert Posted: Nov 05 '09,  4:51 am           
Reviews written: 370
Member since: Jun 18 '00
Post: 241682
I totally buy your argument, Jennifer

I always remind myself that the group posting here is not the typical Epinions user. It's hard to keep in mind sometimes, but so very true!

And I think that more of us then we care to admit (I'll admit it) start reading with the expectation of where the review will be rated. School teachers who grade papers and tests as an essay probably have a keen insight into this. I don't.

Funny story: I was on Facebook the other day and saw a note from a former co-worker asking her social network if anyone knew a local electrician. She got two replies, including one that simply said, "[Person], we use [Company]. They service your area."

Isn't that really the heart of **making a recommendation to buy or not buy a good or service**? Because of their relationship, this person said, "Sure, let me call them and see what's up. Thanks, friend."

No posting of hours, descriptions of why someone needed an electrician, types of truck, time in business, the color of the worker's uniform, how the job was handled. Just two friends talking where one asks a question and the other answers. Based on their rapport, the transaction is made.

If I ask someone I know here (say, Rex or Millinocket or GG), do you guys have a favorite online backup service, one of them will have an opinion. Because of my relationship with them and the respect I have, all they need to do is say a name, and I'm headed to that site. [BTW, does anyone have such a recommendation?]

The point is that we seem to have a communal writing style where we first establish our credibility for writing such a review and then the background that led us to choosing the product or service. That's a lot of words for answering the question:

"I want to start using a paid online backup service that runs in the background. Anyone know a good one?"

which is the online equivalent of walking into the office today and saying, "My car needs a need battery and some tires. Anyone know a good mechanic?"

It's all about answering needs, isn't it? It's not about how well someone writes or the depth of their review. The person reading your review (the information seeker) is just gathering information. Whether we have 3 kids, a Japanese automobile or live in a warm part of the country is pretty much irrelevant in many cases.

   
morilla Posted: Nov 05 '09,  5:52 am (Updated: Nov 05 '09,  6:10 am)           
Reviews written: 199
Member since: Oct 09 '04
Post: 241689
RE: I totally buy your argument, Jennifer

Quote: Joubert
...the group posting here is not the typical Epinions user...

School teachers who grade papers and tests as an essay...

...we first establish our credibility...then the background that led us to choosing the product or service. That's a lot of words for answering the question...

It's all about answering needs, isn't it? It's not about how well someone writes or the depth of their review. The person reading your review (the information seeker) is just gathering information...


The issue isn't whether reviewers answer THE question, it is whether they anticipate and answer the reasonable QUESTIONS readers/users will have about the product. The argument you present is based on "trust" or a perception of credibility. Your exemplars are based on an already established relationship with these people; just as with a co-worker who comes in and asks...

As you suggest, this does not represent the majority of users of this site. (At least not if you have a high ratio of nonmember to member hits.) You are correct, establishing 'credentials' doesn't require a complete resume' on every review. However, context for your experience and your derivative recommendation is essential. Lacking that context, what basis does a reader have for 'trusting' or evaluating your recommendation?

As a teacher, I can say when you sit down to grade an essay question, the issue is exactly the same as the guidelines presented for rating on this site - content and presentation. I expect to see a certain content when students address the question; primarily based on the information I know they have, or should have, available to them. I also look for communication of that information; i.e., if I have to infer what they meant, then they haven't said it. This translates into covering the topic by providing as complete an answer as possible based on the information available (content) in a coherent manner (presentation).

How complete you feel you need to be depends on how you gauge your audience. Some will want the 140 character 'Tweet;' e.g., "buy this, I did." Others will want as much information as can be squeezed in; e.g., not just that the round hit the target, what was the temperature, humidity, velocity, primer used, etc. (Such information does make a difference to some.) Many or most will fall in between. It is also precisely why a one-size-fits-all, all users will appreciate 'short' reviews approach doesn't work here. In fact, that is the very strength of the site.

We do a disservice to users to continually categorize them as only wanting a simple "Buy/Don't Buy" recommendation as the singular 'answer' they are seeking. We are supposed to provide analysis of the product based on our personal experiences therewith. The concept has always been to explain your recommendation, providing as much information as seems reasonable to whom you judge your 'audience' to be, thereby meeting what you perceive to be their needs, allowing them to make their own decision.

If you judge the audience to appreciate more information, you adapt you 'style' accordingly. If your ego is such that you feel your's is or must be the final word on the subject, you are free to truncate your efforts to accommodate such hubris.
   
carstairs38 Posted: Nov 05 '09,  7:50 am           
Reviews written: 1196
Member since: Oct 03 '05
Post: 241697
RE: I totally buy your argument, Jennifer

Quote: Joubert
Funny story: I was on Facebook the other day and saw a note from a former co-worker asking her social network if anyone knew a local electrician. She got two replies, including one that simply said, "[Person], we use [Company]. They service your area."

Isn't that really the heart of **making a recommendation to buy or not buy a good or service**? Because of their relationship, this person said, "Sure, let me call them and see what's up. Thanks, friend."

No posting of hours, descriptions of why someone needed an electrician, types of truck, time in business, the color of the worker's uniform, how the job was handled. Just two friends talking where one asks a question and the other answers. Based on their rapport, the transaction is made.


I'm with Morilla on this one. What you're talking about works great when we already have a relationship of trust built. However, when a stranger finds out reviews, they don't know us from Adam and therefore need a little context to help them judge if the information is relavent to them.

Of course, some things are still irrelevent, like types of truck, color of worker's uniform....

Mark
   
Joubert Posted: Nov 06 '09,  12:12 pm           
Reviews written: 370
Member since: Jun 18 '00
Post: 241784
I think one can argue other side

And both points of view are certainly valid as are the dozens of others.

Hubris? Please.

I was simply applying my knowledge of media as you were applying your knowledge of grading assignments as a teacher.

The data I have reviewed suggests that typical web users want less, not more, information when forming decisions. Please remember that those numbers are in the hundreds of millions so any small cohort can still be several million individuals.

But data from CNN, Nielsen and Google all suggest that less is more is the appropriate time frame.

According to Dr. Jakob Nielsen, widely regarding as a leading expert on web site usability since the web began, there is real data. This quote is from his site this week:

"The average page visit lasts about 30 seconds, but the more experienced the users are, the less time they allocate to each Web page. People are impatient on the Internet. Instantly gratify them, or they're out."

Argue the point if you believe it so, but I'm sticking with the experts on this one.

Hubris? C'mon. You can do better in a civilized conversation.

   
jenniferkateab Posted: Nov 06 '09,  12:19 pm (Updated: Nov 06 '09,  12:34 pm)           
Reviews written: 189
Member since: Oct 22 '07
Post: 241785
RE: I think one can argue other side

Quote: Joubert
-snip-

The data I have reviewed suggests that typical web users want less, not more, information when forming decisions. Please remember that those numbers are in the hundreds of millions so any small cohort can still be several million individuals.

But data from CNN, Nielsen and Google all suggest that less is more is the appropriate time frame.

According to Dr. Jakob Nielsen, widely regarding as a leading expert on web site usability since the web began, there is real data. This quote is from his site this week:

"The average page visit lasts about 30 seconds, but the more experienced the users are, the less time they allocate to each Web page. People are impatient on the Internet. Instantly gratify them, or they're out."
-snip-

Joubert,

I think your argument confirms my suspicion. I mentioned that I have noticed that several times I rated a shorter, but still helpful review about one grade higher on my iPod than I might have on my computer screen. For example, an SH might look more H on my iPod than I would have given it on my regular computer.

When I looked at the same review later, I noticed the overall ratings were mixed SH and H, which told me the review was probably on the borderline according to most rater's criteria.


That is the paradox I was talking about. There may be a psychological component there, but less can appear to be more on the small screen. However, less can also look a little empty and unfulfilling on the large screen.

Oh well, I'm probably over-analyzing.

Jennifer

*edited for clarity*
   
kjell1979 Posted: Nov 06 '09,  12:53 pm           
Reviews written: 280
Member since: Jul 30 '01
Post: 241787
RE: I think one can argue other side

Quote: Joubert
"The average page visit lasts about 30 seconds, but the more experienced the users are, the less time they allocate to each Web page. People are impatient on the Internet. Instantly gratify them, or they're out."


I might be coming around on this. My initial response to the quote above is that you either write something they can read in 30 seconds (i.e. one paragraph) and hope to hit the mark or you can write about most of the important things and organize it such that if someone just wants to spend 30 seconds reading, he or she can identify and read those interesting parts quickly (perhaps I should try bold-tagging entire sentences I deem critical to understanding the major point of my review).

So applying that to the screen size theme and all of a sudden identifying important points in a 2500 word review isn't as easy as on your computer monitor (set to 1280x1024 resolution or higher).

But at the end of the day I'm reminded of my 9th grade english class. The teacher that year started with a 5 page minimum for papers, but had to establish a maximum length of 7 pages. This was because one notable student would write 10 pages and constantly receive straight A's. So the rest of the students would just write longer reviews in the hopes that they figured out the secret. The maximum length was because the teacher likely didn't want to spend his time reading crappy 10 page papers. Me? I changed the font to courier and took lots of shortcuts to reach the minimum of 5. I got a D that year.
   
popsrocks Posted: Nov 06 '09,  1:40 pm           
Reviews written: 2148
Member since: Aug 25 '02
moderator in Gourmet, Restaurants
Post: 241789
RE: I totally buy your argument, Jennifer

Quote: morilla
If your ego is such that you feel your's is or must be the final word on the subject, you are free to truncate your efforts to accommodate such hubris.


Don't quite know where that came from. Intelligent conversation and the sharing of ideas and opinions by anyone here on the site need not be categorized...and as for final word on the subject?...

popsjustsayin'
   
texas-swede Posted: Nov 06 '09,  2:24 pm           
Reviews written: 333
Member since: Sep 02 '08
Post: 241792
My two cents

My two cents in this discussion is that both long and short reviews can be valuable, depending on how the long review is organized.

A long review that starts with an opinion summary (an abstract) followed by details listed under head lines is useful to both those who want read for 10 seconds and those who want to read for several minutes. The reader can read the summary or the particular part of the review he is interested in. If there is no summary and no clearly indicated sections but just a long stream of text, then he can't, of course. I am not saying that I am writing most of my long reviews like that, but maybe I/we should.

About the 30-second thingy. I probably stay around on average for 30 seconds on web sites as well. However, most of the time I stay 5 seconds because I quickly realize it was not what I wanted to read and then when I find what I am interested in I stay for several minutes. It is not primarily an attention span thing.

I agree with pops we need to be tolerant of the epinions of others.

Thomas

   
morilla Posted: Nov 06 '09,  2:52 pm           
Reviews written: 199
Member since: Oct 09 '04
Post: 241793
RE: I totally buy your argument, Jennifer

Quote: Joubert
And both points of view are certainly valid as are the dozens of others...

Hubris? C'mon. You can do better in a civilized conversation.


Quote: popsrocks
Don't quite know where that came from. Intelligent conversation and the sharing of ideas and opinions by anyone here on the site need not be categorized...and as for final word on the subject?...


As I recently said in an exchange with both of you, acontextually parsing out a small piece of a statement, summoning up faux outrage, then not recognizing (though Joubert has, to an extent) the actual point, may be a 'debate' technique common amongst today's media savvy intelligentsia, but it do get tiresome. All it does is distract people who skim (what was that about a short attention span?) the thread and/or only focus on the latest post ... You know, the one with the acontextual parsing.

The 'technique' then forces the original poster to waste time responding to the parsimony rather than continue with the discussion; i.e., it is an attempt to put them on the defensive or CATEGORIZE (pops?), the poster. I say 'faux outrage' in that if you actually read the context of the parsed quote, you would see that I am using an argument of opposites...

Quote: morilla
How complete you feel you need to be depends on how you gauge your audience. Some will want the 140 character 'Tweet;' e.g., "buy this, I did." Others will want as much information as can be squeezed in; e.g., not just that the round hit the target, what was the temperature, humidity, velocity, primer used, etc. (Such information does make a difference to some.) Many or most will fall in between. It is also precisely why a one-size-fits-all, all users will appreciate 'short' reviews approach doesn't work here. In fact, that is the very strength of the site.

We do a disservice to users to continually categorize them as only wanting a simple "Buy/Don't Buy" recommendation as the singular 'answer' they are seeking. We are supposed to provide analysis of the product based on our personal experiences therewith. The concept has always been to explain your recommendation, providing as much information as seems reasonable to whom you judge your 'audience' to be, thereby meeting what you perceive to be their needs, allowing them to make their own decision.

If you judge the audience to appreciate more information, you adapt you 'style' accordingly. If your ego is such that you feel your's is or must be the final word on the subject, you are free to truncate your efforts to accommodate such hubris.


Thus, in the interest of maintaining the 'civilized' conversation you claim to want, how about we stop repeating ourselves in terms of these 'debate tactics' every time there's someone or some point of view you wish to exclude from the conversation. The politics of personal destruction and misleading representation vis a vis acontextual parsing and faux outrage to attain the perception of the moral highground don't work with me. Why? I know what I said and am not compelled to do the "PC" thing...

Particularly given that we are saying the exact, same thing!!! To wit - There is a place for each style of review Or, in this case, comment. Sorry you don't seem to get that unless it is stated the way you would state it.

Now, to Joubert's statistics..
   
sleeper54 Posted: Nov 06 '09,  3:03 pm           
Reviews written: 494
Member since: Feb 24 '01
Post: 241794
RE: I think one can argue other side

Quote: kjell1979
--snip--

The maximum length was because the teacher likely didn't want to spend his time reading crappy 10 page papers. Me? I changed the font to courier and took lots of shortcuts to reach the minimum of 5. I got a D that year.

Double spacing, margins widened, text justified, short paragraphs, edited to end on a line with one or two words..??

Did 'em all myself back in the day. Well . . .all except the 'text justified' which is hard to do on a typewriter. (Yes, typewriter. Remember those kids..??)


As for the rest of this conversation ... if 'hubris' means 'same old, same old' than yeah, that captures my thoughts.



...tom...
' who is probably trying to stifle someone or some thought with this post . . .. '
   
morilla Posted: Nov 06 '09,  3:10 pm (Updated: Nov 06 '09,  3:18 pm)           
Reviews written: 199
Member since: Oct 09 '04
Post: 241796
RE: I think one can argue other side

Quote: Joubert
...I was simply applying my knowledge of media as you were applying your knowledge of grading assignments as a teacher.

The data I have reviewed suggests that typical web users want less, not more, information when forming decisions...

According to Dr. Jakob Nielsen, widely regarding as a leading expert on web site usability since the web began, there is real data. This quote is from his site this week:

"The average page visit lasts about 30 seconds, but the more experienced the users are, the less time they allocate to each Web page. People are impatient on the Internet. Instantly gratify them, or they're out."

Argue the point if you believe it so, but I'm sticking with the experts on this one...


I will, thank you. Leaving aside your repeated attempts to convey that you are the expert on the web and I'm only a teacher with no understanding of cognitive learning (oh, you don't wanna go there)...

We all know the old quote about there being statistics, lies, and $#@* lies. The reason for the expression is that you can make statistics say practically anything. Another expression is that "numbers don't bleed;" i.e., they are an abstract representation of an overall concept, but can never, fully convey the individual. This is why I have stated that one must guage their audience; i.e., you are not writing for everyone simultaneously. (Which also happens to be the problem with attempting to rate 'everything;' i.e., you are not necessarily the intended audience, leaving you to rate based on abstract criteria rather than on what may be of value to the actual audience.)

That is where your argument breaks down. As I said above, some are going to want the 140 character, 30 second, "Tweet." Others are going to want in-depth analysis. Most are going to fall in between. The attention span you cite is a general statistic, nothing more. No matter what the individual's 'expertise' who generated it, it does not address specific sites, reviews or individuals; all it can do is categorize general trends - something Pops has already said should not be done in relation to our discussions (or reviews). It also does not address an individual's "need of the moment" vis a vis what they are looking for at any given time; something that will vary. Remember, 30 seconds is an AVERAGE; meaning some will take only 5 seconds on a site and others will take longer. Given the "millions" sample sizes you suggest, that means, for all one can discern from these stats, that our site's readers could be here much longer.

If someone is truly interested in obtaining information, the interest and resultant attention span is present - provided - as TexasSwede suggests, they are persuaded in the first 30 seconds that such information is present. This is what advertisers call a 'hook,' otherwise, you lose the audience in the first 5 seconds.

It is what I refer to as the "Field of Dreams" theory. Build it and they will come; but, they have to know it is there. Build it badly, without creating a 'full' experience and they won't come back. Build it well or respectfully of the individual/audience, providing them with more than just the game (one they could see better by staying home and watching on television) and they may become 'season ticket holders.'


   
morilla Posted: Nov 06 '09,  3:12 pm           
Reviews written: 199
Member since: Oct 09 '04
Post: 241797
RE: I think one can argue other side

Quote: sleeper54
...As for the rest of this conversation ... if 'hubris' means 'same old, same old' than yeah, that captures my thoughts...


You got it.

Hallejuah!!!

He has seen the light. The great light. The bright light. The guiding light.

Welcome brother... :o)
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