shecker's Full Review: Hoover F7452-900 SteamVac Upright Vacuum
First, be aware that this is a very long review with lots of details. Take a seat because this will take some time to read. For those who have seen this before, this should be the final update.
I’ve been researching deep cleaners for quite some time. I’ve been wanting one that met the following requirements: 1. It’s good at cleaning hard floors. 2. It has an automatic mixing system, so no detergent is wasted 3. It has tools for working in tight spaces. So I look at the Bissell proheat 9500 with clean surge. Nice cleaner, it’s got the tools, it’s got the mixing system. However, suction is mediocre at best and the squeegee that cleans the hard floor keeps coming loose. Then I look at the f5912-900 from Hoover. It doesn’t have an automatic mixing system, but it does have tools and suction is excellent. Only problem is it doesn’t come with a hard floor tool. Tried ordering one from Hoover and it never came. Plus, when I tried to get my money back for it (a grand total of $8.63), it never came either. So much for that machine, it went back to Bed Bath and Beyond. So then I start looking at the all terrain series of machines. Hey, these are looking nice. It’s got the tools. It’s got the automatic mixing system. It’s got the hard floor package. Lets see how it stands up as far as suction goes. So I get one.
Okay, so I now have the Hoover f7452900. I take it home. Assembly can’t be any simpler. The handle comes with a bag that has 2 screws and 3 nuts. The handle slides onto a piece which has a plug in it. That plug is responsible for electrically connecting the various switches on the handle to the various parts in the cleaner. You slide the screws through the front, the nuts go in the back and fit into slots specially made for them. Okay, handle put on, time for the clean water tank. Again, easy enough. Remove any protective packing. You align the tank then push it into place. The carrying handle on the tank clicks into place and the tank is installed. The recovery tank is already installed, so no problem there. What floor type do you want to clean? If it’s carpet, you’re done with assembly. If not, you have to get the carpet brushes off and put the hard floor brushes on. While this is not hard to do, some words need to be said.
To get the hard floor brushes on, you first have to remove the carpet brushes. In both cases, the brushes are in a plastic housing. You have to grab the ends of this housing and pull it straight out from the bottom of the cleaner. This is somewhat difficult because of tight quarters. You can’t get a good grip on the housing to pull it away. Removing the nozzle helps, but it’s still tight. Hoover should think about a slight design change on this. On their floor mates, you slide a couple switches and the brushes drop out. Not sure why they didn’t implement this on the all terrain. This, however is by no means a show stopper. To get the hard floor brushes in, you reverse the procedure for getting the brushes out, but with one slight detail added. There is a shaft which has to be lined up with a socket on the bottom of the cleaner. This shaft is responsible for spinning the brushes once they are installed. If you break this shaft, the brushes are useless. Don’t force it into the cleaner. Make sure it is lined up with the hole it fits into. Turn the brushes until that shaft slips into the hole smoothly. Then and only then should you attempt to push the brushes the rest of the way onto the cleaner.
Okay, so carpet brushes off, hard floor brushes on. Now, time for the squeegee. Again, not too hard. The squeegee basically clips onto the nozzle on the front of the unit. It has 2 posts that stick up between the cleaner itself and the nozzle. Get those posts lined up, then pull the squeegee onto the nozzle. When it’s on, you will know because it will click into place.
Now, everything is put together. Time to stretch its legs and give it a test spin, but first some more preparation. You need to fill the detergent and water tanks. The detergent tank is a 16 ounce tank which is molded onto the clean water tank. Remove the clean water tank and fill the detergent compartment with the appropriate detergent for the job. You get 2 16 ounce bottles of detergent with the cleaner. One is for hard floors, the other is for carpet and upholstery. Use the right detergent for the job. If you plan to do extensive cleaning, pick up some detergents from your local retailer. It’s best to use Hoover branded detergents, but that’s entirely up to you. Now, fill the water compartment. It holds about a gallon of water. Don’t fill this with boiling water as it could damage the plastic. According to the manual, the water should *not* be over 140 degrees. I fill mine to the top. Reinstall the clean water tank.
Preparation completed. Brushes on, detergent and water tank filled, ready to go. The first thing you will notice is that this machine is louder than your normal vacuum. It is also considerably heavier than your normal vacuum. It’s a good thing it has large wheels on it, or it would be a bear to maneuver. However, this machine has it where it counts. The suction is great. It does a fine job cleaning hard floors. I can’t say how well it does on carpets since I don’t have any at this time. If you want to use the tools, you have to connect the hose to the machine in 2 places. There is a large port on the nozzle which has a door on it. Open this door and it will reveal an opening with slots on each side. The hose connects only 1 way, so don’t force it on backwards. You will know when the main hose is connected because the clips on the hose will line up with the slots on the nozzle. The hose is secure when the clips have locked into place. There is a fluid tube which comes out of the main hose which connects to a port on the side of the cleaner. You simply plug the tube into this port and you are ready to go. The pump will lock the tube onto the port when the machine is on. It goes without saying that the machine should be off when converting to tool use. The suction on the tools is okay. I wouldn’t call it outstanding, but it’s not bad either. It would be nice if Hoover had a hard floor tool you could attach, but you can use the spin scrub tool if need be. It doesn’t have a squeegee, but will get the job done in a pinch. Some people have mentioned the storage unit for the tools likes to fall off. Personally, I’ve never had that problem. It stays on fine for me. The only problem I’ve had is sometimes the hose likes to partially come out of the storage unit. That means you might have one end flopping around, but again, it’s a minor thing. Simply push the hose back in and you are good to go. Some people say the plastic on the machine is brittle. I haven’t had the machine that long, but so far, so good. I’ve also seen where people say the clean water and detergent tank starts leaking and cracking after a couple uses. Hoover is aware of this issue and has redesigned their tanks to fix this issue. The detergent tank is molded onto the water tank. Previously, it used to be a green tank which was glued/taped onto the main tank, then held in by clips. Hoover reps have told me that tank was proan to cracking and leaking, but the new one piece tanks don’t do this. Also, there used to be a problem with the brushes. Remember that shaft I told you about that fits into a socket on the bottom of the cleaner? It used to be prone to snapping off. Now, Hoover says that’s been fixed.
I’ve mentioned quite a bit about the good features of this cleaner, but now it’s time to get into the annoying and ugly problems this cleaner has.
As mentioned before, the cleaner is much louder than your normal vacuum. When it is fired up, it will wake the dead. So be sure you run this during the day, when no one is trying to sleep. The machine is a beast. It will *not* get into all the places your vacuum can get. Because of the design, it’s too big to fit under low furniture. If you want to do a thorough cleaning job, it is best to move furniture out of the way. One minor annoyance the machine has deals with the recovery tank for the dirty water. If you get too close to something, the lever/handle that holds the lid on the recovery tank likes to flip back. If the machine is on, it’s no big deal. The vacuum will hold the lid on the recovery tank. You do need to be aware of this, though since you will not be able to return the cleaner to the upright position until that handle is in the locked position. When you remove the recovery tank and carry it by its handle, it likes to tilt forward a bit. Be aware of this since it could result in some spilling, especially if it is full. The cleaner is heavier than your normal vacuum cleaner. Lets face it, the unit alone weighs in at close to 25 pounds. Most vacuums weigh in at 20 to 22 pounds. On the light side, some weigh under 12 pounds. Now, add to that 25 pounds 16 ounces of detergent and 8 pounds of water for a grand total of 33 pounds, give or take a couple. This is a heavy weight, not a light weight, so be sure to take this into consideration.
None of these problems I’ve mentioned so far are show stoppers. Many of the problems are common to all deep cleaners of this type. However, the next problem is not and this is where it gets mighty ugly.
This cleaner has a backflow problem which Hoover is aware of. The simple version is that the detergent will back flow into the water tank. It doesn’t matter whether or not the clean water compartment is open or not, the problem will still occur. The process is much slower if the clean water compartment is closed. Instead of minutes, it will take days. But before we get into the details of the problem, lets see what the manual says. According to the manual, on page 16 under storage, it says and I quote: “Before storing: • Empty clean water tank and let air dry. Replace on cleaner. • Unused detergent can be stored in the detergent container.” I initially thought that the tanks needed to be *closed* to prevent this problem, but turns out that this is not the case. Closing the tanks only slows the process down, it does *not* stop it. What would take minutes with the tank open takes days with it shut. Let me explain. I like to try and kill 2 birds with 1 stone. It says to let the water compartment air dry. So I figure, I’ll leave the water compartment open, the detergent compartment closed, install the tank, and let dry for 24 hours. I know where the tank is, it’s drying, when it’s done, I’ll close the tank. There is where the problems start. Within minutes after installing the tank, you will notice something different. Your detergent tank will virtually empty out. You look and no doubt wonder what’s going on. Did it leak out? No, don’t see it on the floor. But wait, check your clean water compartment. Woe, hey hey hey, there’s detergent in it! How the heck did it get there? This is the exact question I asked when I saw this the first time. Turns out it back flowed through the cleaner. That’s right, I’ll say it again. The detergent went out the detergent tank, through the lines, and came up into the clean water compartment. But you say, that’s not supposed to happen. You are right, that’s exactly what I said. If you wish, you can look at what went down. It will be after the conclusion of the review. For those who don’t want to wade through the details, here’s a summary.
I put in an enquiry to Hoover through their web site. They tell me they are “aware of this failure mode” and to store the tank separate from the cleaner. I make some suggestions as to what they can do to fix the problem. They tell me the information is “not new to their engineers” but they appreciate my comments. At this point, I’m not too happy. I ask if the information is not new, why haven’t they fixed the problem. By this point, product management and I have been talking. Customer service finds out, and directs me to them. Product management tells me they basically can’t fix the problem because the check valve system is patented by Bissell. However, he does offer to send a check valve. Later, he does research and finds out there is a fix using the current valve system. Then, contact is lost for several days. When contact is resumed, product management tells me he’s been out of town for a while. A few more days pass and I ask again about obtaining the fixed valve. He then tells me it will be another few weeks because the engineer who is working on it is overseaeing the launch of a new carpet cleaner.
By this time, it’s been over a month. The problem is still not resolved. Sure, I could store the tank separate, but why should I have to do that when it clearly says in the manual to replace the tank on cleaner after air drying for 24 hours? Furthermore, it says that detergent can be stored in the detergent container for future use. Product management initially told me that Hoover does *not* have a program set up to deal with this type of issue at this time. However, as indicated earlier, he did some research and apparently found there is a fix for the issue with the current valve system. One thing product management made very clear is they can’t build the machines with the check valves in them do to patent issues. If you want a solution, chances are you will have to do what I did. I urge you to carefully consider whether or not you have the time and patience to go through with this before getting this cleaner. Frankly, I believe over a month for getting a problem fixed is too long. I will not recommend this cleaner to my friends.
As you can see, this cleaner does have some good things going for it. It cleans good, it’s got the automatic mixing system, it’s got the tools. However, the design issues plus the fact the problem is still not fixed cause me to lean toward not recommending this cleaner. If the problem had been fixed in a timely manner, the outcome likely would be different. Bottom line, the problem is not fixed, and it’s been over a month. Don’t get this cleaner.
Now, for those of you who are interested in seeing the emails, here they are with all *valid* contact information removed, except my email address. I’d love someone to send an email to noreply@tifloorcare.com and see what you get. If you question hoover about this, they will tell you this is standard procedure for many companies. You will see this mentioned in the emails.
Beginning of conversation with Hoover: (starts in early February, 2009) Initial enquiry: Okay, first, if I had not seen this, I would not believe it, but this is a problem I recently discovered. According to the manual, the water tank is supposed to be air dried for 24 hours. You can leave detergent in the detergent tank for future use. This information comes out of the manual. Here's where it gets interesting. If you install the tank with the water tank left open, the detergent will make its way into the water tank. This does sound odd, but try this and see if I'm right. Fill the detergent tank with soap. Leave the water section open and install the tank. Within a couple minutes, the detergent will have made its way into the water compartment. It's not a problem with the tank, it's the cleaner. If I had to guess, you have a hose with a t on it, connecting both the water and detergent tanks. The only reasons the detergent does not make it into the water tank are: 1 the tank is not installed, or 2 when the tank is installed, the water and detergent compartments are typically both closed, which creates a pressure seal preventing the detergent from back flowing into the water compartment. But that makes it hard to dry out the water compartment, doesn't it? I would also guess if the water compartment were full and the detergent compartment empty, and you left the detergent compartment open, the same thing would happen in reverse (water making its way into the detergent compartment). And considering you have much more water than detergent, what do you think might happen? Can you say mess on the floor? I'd like to see this problem addressed. If done right, it shouldn't matter which tank is open, there would be no backflow whatsoever. Bissell has several cleaners similar to the all terrain. I've had a couple of them an *never* had this problem. In their manual, it says to set the dial to rinse before turning the machine off, which is supposed to prevent the detergent from making it into the lines. I think hoover should have a similar setup. Btw how you respond to this is going to be a deciding factor on whether I want to deal with hoover both now and in the future. So please consider what I've said. Thanks for your time.
Response from hoover Hello, Thank you for your recent email. We are aware of this failure mode, and the most feasible solution at this point is to store the tank detached from the unit. This will prevent any possibility of "cross-flow" within the unit.
My response: A check valve or perhaps an update to the manual will fix this problem. A check valve would be a better solution, though, and I can't imagine it being hard to implement, especially since these cleaners cost around $300. Another trick, all be it a pain to have to do every time, is to take the tank off and purge the lines. Then, when you put the tank back on, provided both compartments are closed, it shouldn't cross flow. Btw, I see you don't like to receive email unless it's from this web site, (and only this site). That's quite obvious from the email address you provide when you reply. Nice customer service! I'm beginning to wonder if a trip to Best Buy might be in order to return the cleaner? Given the email address and 3 day response time (not including the weekend), I'd hate to see what happens if I have a more significant problem. Regardless, I think Best Buy should know about that crossflow issue and I intend to bring it to their attention.
Shane
Response from hoover Shane, Thank you for your recent email. We apologize for the delay in our last email response to you. Your email was submitted to our Product Engineers for their comments. They responded in a timely manner to Customer Service, however this additional step delayed our response to you. We strive for 24 hour response to consumer emails (our Corporate Customer Service Department is closed on weekends). Our Consumer Email Response System's "no reply" feature is similar to most company's email response systems. Our system creates a customer history of emails for our referral when a consumer sends more than one email and also allows us to respond to emails in the order in which they are received. We strive to provide the best products and services to consumers. Your feedback regarding your Hoover All-Terrain SteamVac cleaner, model #F7452900 is always appreciated. The information you provided in your last email is not new to our engineers, but we thank you for your consumer comments. If you are dissatisfied with your Hoover All-Terrain SteamVac you may return the cleaner to the point of purchase, subject to the store's return policies. Have a great day!
My response: If, and I quote, “The information you provided in your last email is not new to our engineers, but we thank you for your consumer comments”, then why hasn’t something been implemented to fix the problem? I’d think if I knew about something like this that I’d fix it as soon as possible. Lets face it, from research I’ve done, part of which included talking to your reps on the phone, cleaners sold for a 5 year stretch had a problem with the clean tanks leaking and the detergent tank breaking off. So if it takes 5 or so years to fix a leaking tank, how long would it take to fix the crossflow issue? Another 5 years? No offense, but that’s ridiculous. I’d bet if I wanted to, I could take the cleaner apart, put in a couple check valves, and the crossflow issue would go away. If I wanted to be more picky, a couple good solenoid valves would work better. Squeeze the trigger, the valves open. Release and the valves shut. When the machine is off, the valves should stay shut. They got them on refrigerators, washing machines, and dishwashers. And they work. And, to an extent, you already have something like this set up. If not, you would have water on the floor no matter if you squeezed the trigger or not. I just don’t understand why you haven’t taken the next steps. It’s not like you don’t have the resources and buying power to do this, you do. It’s funny, on 02/13/2009 at 1:06 p.m cst I showed the head maintenance man at the school I’m attending *your* cleaner. He wants to use it for cleaning vents and blinds. He liked what he saw as far as raw power and the potential it has. Give me one reason why I should not tell him about this crossflow issue? Or how about my parents and friends who fix and clean up houses. Better yet, how about your warranty service centers, who also sell these cleaners. I talked to one in the area I’m in and he had never heard of the issue. These are things you may want to consider. And as you so well put it, “Have a great day!”
Shane
By this time, product management and I have been in contact and customer service finds out about it.
Response from hoover Hello, Thank you for your recent email. It is my understanding that you are in contact with product management at this time. Please direct your comments to them.
So I follow their orders and send the above comments and response to product management
Response from product management (with a couple messages I sent them earlier): Shane, It wasn't too hard to find your epinions site. So here's the deal. Well, let me begin a little with the tank issue that you said took 5 years to fix. There was no problem with the tank to begin with. The issue was that consumers weren't reading the directions, and then ripping the detergent tank off and calling us to say that "it broke and I don't know what happened". The make sure this didn't happen, we made the detergent tank part of the clean water tank. This "fix" only took months to coordinate after the initial production, the 5-years that most people see was because of the sheer volume of machines that we made. Most people only use their carpet cleaner once or twice a year, so it may take longer for people to bring it in for service. As for the cross-flow that you're more concerned about. I assumed that since you are so interested in this, you would have checked the patent office. Hoover created the personal carpet cleaner, but Bissell got a patent on the check-valve system (Patent# 6,167,586) on upright carpet cleaners. We currently use what's called a hydraulic-valve system. As long as there's pressure in both tanks (clean water in one and detergent in the other), there's no cross-flow. If you empty both tanks or just set the tank aside from the machine, there won't be an issue. I'd be happy to send you a check-valve, but we currently can't build the machines with them. I can't share with you the technology that we're working on to avoid the check-valve system, but rest assured that when we said, "We strive to provide the best products and services to consumers. Your feedback regarding your Hoover All-Terrain SteamVac cleaner, model #F7452900 is always appreciated. The information you provided in your last email is not new to our engineers, but we thank you for your consumer comments." we meant it. We don't usually give out patent info, but since it's public knowledge I figured you'd find it if you were looking for it. So what's wrong with customer service telling you to just email me, or as you put it, "Product Management"? I would think that direct contact with a product manager (someone who actually works on the machines) is better than a customer service agent. Now……you bought an All Terrain just for your hard floors and not for your carpet? I think you're the first person I've talked to that did that. Why don't you like mixing the detergent and the water together, like what we have in the FloorMate? I'm just curious. Not many stores carry the H3060, but you can still find it online. Most carry the H3044 and H3045. You gave me your address, so I'm assuming you feel confident that we'll send you something (which I will do). If I send you some products, will you be nice to us and stop harassing our nice customer service team?
From: Shane Hecker [mailto:shanehecker@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:30 PM To: product management Subject: Re: re: problem with cleaner You are correct, both about the page and the detergent issue. Basically, I don't see why Hoover won't fix the crossflow issue. Give this a try and you will see what I'm talking about. After you use the cleaner, take the clean water tank and empty the clean water section. Leave the clean water section open and install the tank back onto the unit. Within a couple minutes, you will see the detergent move from where it is supposed to be (the detergent tank) to where it is not supposed to be (the clean water compartment). All I am asking from Hoover is that they fix the problem. You may have seen the emails that have been sent back and forth. I suggested they try putting in some check valves to fix it or perhaps the solinoid valves, like the ones you find in a dishwasher or washing machine. What bothers me is their response. In particular, "This information is not new to our engineers, but we thank you for your comments." Okay, so if it is not new, why isn't it fixed? To tell the truth, I didn't want you to have to see my ugly/frustrated side. I was hoping customer service would take care of the problem, but they must have found out you contacted me. They told me to direct my comments to you (or as they said "product management"). So in this case, I'm following their orders. As far as schooling goes, I did graduate from Texas AnM. I'm currently in training at Lions World Services for the Blind to become a teacher for the blind. I will be teaching computers and other technologies to them. This training should be finished in March. As far as carpet goes, my house in Corpus Christi has it, but my dorm room does not. I'm primarily wanting something that will clean hard floors, but where you don't have to manually mix the detergent and water. I tried the Bissell pro heat 9500, but the hard floor squeegy kept coming loose and the suction was not good. One thing the Bissell did have is a mixing system which does not have the crossflow issue. But, I wanted better suction, so that's why I went with the all terrain. I know you have dedicated hard floor machines. I was interested in the Hoover h3060, but no one in my area sells it. And, you have to manually mix the detergent and water. If Hoover had a hard floor machine with an automatic mixing system, I'd get that instead. But the only machine you have that has what I want and can do what I want currently is the all terrain. I've never tried shampooing carpets, but I can't imagine it would be all that hard. Might have to give it a try, since the all terrain comes with the stuff needed for the job. Shane ----- Original Message ----- From: product management To: Shane Hecker Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:34 AM Subject: RE: re: problem with cleaner OK Shane, what can I do to make you happy? You seem frustrated, so I'd like to make sure that you're taken care of and that you'll give us good feedback on your Epinions page (this is you, right?) http://www.epinions.com/user-shecker You're happy with the performance of the All Terrain, right? It's just bugs you to have to have to pour the detergent back into the bottle after you use it…right? I'm just trying to make sure that when our interaction ends, that you are happy and that you'll recommend us to your maintenance man and other people you may know. I'm still a little confused here, so verify this for me: You've graduated, but you're back in school somewhere else, you love Jesis Christe (which as a Christian myself spell it as Jesus Christ), you're blind and play the organ for your church and worry about how your carpet looks, and you're pretty darn good at guessing what the inside of appliances look like without actually taking them apart. How am I doing? Shane, what is it that I can do for you? If you give me your address I will be happy to send you some products.
my response: I don't deny that talking to a person who works on the machines is better. I don't like harassing people, but when it comes to getting something fixed, I think it's the right thing to do. As for mixing the detergent manually, the reason I don't like doing that is because what happens when you are through and still have left over water and detergent? What you didn't use gets thrown down the sink/toilet, which means you waste detergent. Sure, it may not be much, but over time, it can add up. Oh, but Hoover might lose money so what incentive would they have to fix it? So here comes the all terrain. Why waste when you can have a separate detergent tank built onto the clean tank? Furthermore, you are supposed to be able to store the detergent in this tank for future use.
As far as the patents, I didn't know about Bissell doing that. To be honest, I never thought to do the research. I do find it interesting that Bissell would patent a check valve system. But here's something interesting. I don't think Bissell patented the check valve system that you might use say for preventing backflow up a 4 inch sewer line. Yeah, I know, 2 different applications, but I think the point has been made. All I'm trying to say is there's more than one way to deal with a problem. If Bissell used the system you wanted, perhaps another system? You said something about a "technology" that you are developing to deal with the issue? The sooner it comes out, the better. Hey, why not send me a machine with the new technology, then I'll take the other one back to best buy and we'll call it even. Smile. If you want to send me a check valve, that's fine. It can't hurt and this may give me the excuse to take the unit apart and install it. Of course, I'm assuming this would *void* the warranty. As far as other products are concerned, it is up to you whether or not you send them. I'll leave that to your descression.
Shane
response from product management: Well, I'm sure you won't believe me, but you can keep the detergent/water mix in the FloorMate for future use. I have one at home that I store in a closet that way. We could change the tank system in the FM, but we're trying to keep it cost effective for you all. It's not the wording that stops us from using a check-valve system, it's the patent that says no check-valve can be used in an upright carpet cleaner. There's no getting around that. Hey, I could send you all kinds of technology that we don't sell yet, but as far as I know, you work for Bissell. So for now, that "technology" is G14 classified. I'll be in touch about that product for you.
my response: You may not believe me either, but I don't work for Bissell. Ask them and you will see. I'm just a customer who bought some of their products. Some I liked, others I didn't. One other thing you should know is that my parents have owned Hoover units for years. *They* are the ones who *recommended* your brand to me. Now as far as storing water and detergent in the tank, I'm just trying to follow what the manual says. And if I'm not mistaken, it says you should not keep water in the clean water tank. If memory serves, it says to air dry the tanks for 24 hours. I'd imagine it's to prevent bacteria growth from occurring. Now, I'm going to bring up something about the floor mates. If I had my choice, I'd have the h3060 instead of the all terrain. However, as I mentioned earlier, no one sells it in my area. It's a personal thing, but I don't like going online to buy a product, only to find out later that something is wrong with it and having to return it. Or, what if it doesn't serve my needs. I like to see the product I'm getting first. Have you ever had to return something you bought online? Sometimes, it can be a major hassle. Shane
followups to previous message: followup 1: proof is in the documentation Here's the proof about what I'm talking about when it comes to the detergent issue with the other cleaners. Check out page 14 in the h3044 manual under storage. Check out page 15 under storage for the h3060 manual. Both say and I quote: ". Empty and rinse solution and recovery tanks. Allow to air dry." Lets see what it says with the f5914-900 which from my understanding is the same as the f5912-900, except the f5912-900 has a 2 year warranty. Yes, same thing, in the storage section, but in a slightly different way. Talk to you laer.
Shane
followup 2: can I interest you in a phone call? and complement First, I see you respond to emails quickly. Very nice. Second, looks like I'll have to be the one to initiate this since I have no way to reach you directly except through email.
xxxxxxxxxx (phone number omitted for security reasons)
That's my phone number. You can reach me between 12 and 1 p.m or after 4:30 p.m central time. If you are in eastern time, that's between 1 and 2 p.m or after 5:30 p.m. Give it a shot. You might find out I'm a nice person. This assumes you are not too busy. I figured it's time to put a voice behind the person. Emails can be sterril.
Your ball.
Shane
followup 3: one more thing Question about the floormates. You said in a previous message that you want to save the consumer money, which is why you only have the 1 clean water/detergent tank. But here's the question. Is it reasonable to expect that it is going to cost an extra $100 to add a separate detergent tank and the mixer system? This is going on a best guess, based on what I can see with the all terrain, but lets see. A couple extra hoses which aren't more than a quarter inch in diameter (made of a material that almost looks like a soda straw to me), an extra valve or 2, and a piece of what looks like a foam sponge between 2 pieces of plastic? You might have to redesign the tank, since the tanks on the floormate are smaller, but the basics are already there. Only thing is they are bigger on the all terrain. This might even give you a chance to showcase your "new technology" you are working on.
Shane
response from product management to initial message, followup 1, and followup 2: You are correct, we ask you to dry it out to prevent bacteria growth. I'll be honest, since you have pointed it out, I will put in a request in to change the manuals so that we don't have any more confusion in the future. One thing that I learned when I got in to product management was that we have to get back the buyers for each account. They come in for a meeting to see out products, we do a song and dance to show them all of the features and benefits, and then they decide which products they'll carry on their shelves. We pitched the H3060 to all of our major accounts knowing that when someone buys a FloorMate, they take it home and discover that they want tools. The buyer is to the store as the government is to our country. By that I mean, personal choice gets in the way a lot, and they don't always do what is right for you (the consumer).
In other messages, product management said they would call me today, 2/19/2009 at about 12:30 p.m. True to his word, I got a call. Looks like they will send a check valve to fix the issue. Interestingly enough, he didn't believe me at first when I told him I was blind. "This guy can't be for real." But he also said after a while, he realized I was "legit".
product manager initiates on 2/20/2009: Shane,
Glad we got to talk yesterday. I was discussing your situation with another one of our engineers this morning and he told me that you may have received a defective hydraulic valve. He said that they did make a fix to get around the check valve issue. I looked one our website, and there is a service center near your house in Corpus Christi. If you take it in, they will fix the hydraulic valve for free, and you won't have to rig the check valve. Just thought I'd give you that option.
Let me know what you think.
my response: I appreciate that option, but at this time, I am not in Corpus Christi. I'm not going to be there until at the end of March or early April. Interesting you mention that valve being defective. If this is the case, I'd say you have several cleaners that have that issue. I've tried the f7458-900 from sears, 2 of them in fact. One had a defect in that when you squeezed the trigger on the handle, even with both tanks full, nothing would come out. The second one had the same issue the f7452900 I have has now, I just didn't know what was going on at that time. What about perhaps sending me the fixed valve? Is that a possibility? I'm assuming I would know it's fixed by doing the same thing, leave the clean water tank open, install, and see if detergent backflows into it. If it does, problem still exists, otherwise it's fixed.
Shane
Shortly after sending the above message, I thought I’d check to see if closing the water tank prevented the backflow issue. I figured the tank has been closed, it’s been on the cleaner for 4 days, so lets check it out. Turns out it did not, so I sent the message below to product management.
I stand corrected on the backflow problem, but this is not good. It doesn't matter if you have both tanks closed or not. If the clean water compartment is empty, the detergent will still backflow into it. Closing the tank only slows it down, it does *not* stop it.
Shane
followup to my last response on 2/20/2009, followup sent on 2/25/2009 Howdy, Shane here. I haven't gotten a response to the last email I sent you. It contained an answer and question to the question you asked me on 02/20/2009 related to the valve. Also, I mentioned that the back flow problem was slightly worse than what I initially thought. Just wondered if you got that email.
response from product management sent on 2/26/2009: I got it. I've been out of town and just got back in this morning. I'm a little backed up right now so it will be a little while before I can get back to you.
followup sent on 3/5/2009 to product management: It's been a while since I've heard from you, so figured I'd drop you a line. Still wondering about the valve and getting it fixed.
Shane
response from product management on 3/10/2009: Shane,
The engineer in charge of the lab is down at one of our manufacturing facilities overseeing the launch of one of our new carpet cleaners. He'll be back within a few weeks. As soon as he gets back I'll talk to him about getting you the valve.
my response on 3/16/2009: In a few weeks (less than 2) I will be in Corpus Christi. That means I can take it to a dealer there, should I choose to do so. I need to be honest with you. It's been over a month and the problem has not been resolved. I know you've done your best, but I think it's time for me to take the cleaner back to the store. I'm also going to update my review to reflect the fact that I can't recommend this cleaner. I doubt very seriously that most people are going to have the time and patience to wait over a month to get a problem fixed. I do want to thank you for your time.
Shane
response from product management on 3/17/2009: Shane,
I'm sorry that you have hard feelings. I have to say that we sell hundreds of thousands of these machines every year and you are the first person that I know of who isn't satisfied with either leaving the tanks empty or setting the tank down next to the machine for storage.
I understand that you feel obligated to express your opinion on the internet, but please know that I have gone out of my way on more than one occasion to help you.
We have a dedicated staff constantly working on our current products to improve their performance and I think it's rare for a product manager get involved with a customer service issue. I did my best and I wish you the best.
Take care,
my response on 3/17/2009: Interesting you mention about putting the tank beside the machine or emptying it. I did store the tank off the machine for a while. It's not the machine I'm concerned with. It's the fact that: there is a problem which hoover is very well aware of It's been over a month Problem still not resolved
Lets try this on for size. You have just bought a new car. I'm assuming you drive to work, the store, and so on. Lets say it's a Ford Mustang. The engine happens to be a v8, fuel injected racing engine with more power than you could possibly know what to do with. It goes from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds. You tap on the gas and your tires are squealing. Lets say Ford is aware that gas can backflow into your oil pan. Now I don't know much about cars, but lets say you find out about this problem because your gas is disappearing. It's not causing your car to stop running, but it's not doing you any good because gas is being wasted. Furthermore, lets say gas is at $4 per gallon. You tell Ford about the problem, going through their chain of command. What if they told you to disconnect your gas tank from the engine to prevent any possibility of a backflow problem? Sure, you could do it, but talk about a pain. You make a fus about it at which point they tell you there is no warranty repair center in your area. You do the research and find out there is one 200 miles away. You work from 8 to 5 and the dealership has 8 to 5 business hours, Monday through Friday, which makes it impossible unless you take some time off. For argument's sake, lets say your boss has told you know one is allowed to take off because a training session is going on. All employees must attend. Then Ford eventually tells you the system they want to use is patented by Toyota, and their hands are tied. Then they tell you they have a fix which will take several weeks for you to get because the guy working on it is overseeing a launch of the platinum version of the car you just bought. By this time it's been over a month, which means any return policies will have expired and you are at the mercy of the dealership as to whether or not they will take back the car. Sure, the car has a great engine. It goes fast. It may not have the best milage but it sure has some giddy up and go, which happens to be something you like. However, this nasty defect is causing you to lose a considerable amount of gas, costing you money. You've been in contact with the people you need to talk to at Ford, but it's been over a month and the problem (which shouldn't be occuring in the first place) is still not fixed. Would you be happy about this?
Now, back to reality. Your cleaner has a problem. I went through the chain of command. Eventually, we get to the stage where you inform me the fix will take a few weeks to arrive. Sure, I can store the tank beside the unit, but I should not have to. Plus, other companies who make similar products don't have this problem. At this point, I'm outside if not close to being outside of the return policy for the retailer. I don't deny you have been trying to help me out, but the bottom line is the problem is still not fixed and won't be for a while. That's where I have issues. Your machine is great at cleaning. But if I want to store the tank on it, I could be looking at some money going to waste. And at $21.33 per gallon of cleaning fluid (give or take a couple bucks), that's a bit much.
Shane
response from product management sent on 3/17/2009: Our customer service suggested leaving the tank next to machine or pouring theedy over detergent back into the bottle.
This is not a car and an oil pan issue is not even close to this issue.
We have given you options. If we can't make you happy, and you want to return the machine, feel free. I'm not stopping you. If you like it and want to keep it, set the tank aside or empty it.
my response: That car issue was for illistration purposes. I never said we were dealing with a car issue. However, for $300 and some change, the machine should work correctly. I'm not trying to be nasty here, but it appears that is what this is degenerating into.
Shane
response from product management Shane,
I know that the car issue was only for illustration purposes, I just don't think it was a fair example. Again, I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't know what you want us to do. We've given you options and they aren't good enough. From what I gather, if the manual would have suggested setting the tank aside (if you want to store detergent in it) I don't think you ever would have had an issue. I will always do my best to make sure that our customers are more than satisfied with our products, however, I am busy person and do not have the time to see who has the stronger will and who will crack first. All I am saying is that we've given you options and I don't know what else to do.
Enjoy the weather where you are, it's still cold here,
my response You may be right about this. But the fact remains that the manual specifically says to replace the tank on the cleaner after it is air dried for 24 hours. So, now the question is will the manual be changed, or will the problem be corrected? I'd rather see the problem fixed.
Shane
Followup to my response
When I mention about the problem being fixed, I'm talking about the future. This is becoming more of a matter of principle. But given the fact I'm outside the return policy of the retailer, I may still want it fixed for myself. This will especially be true if the retailer refuses to take the product back.
So lets assume for a minute the retailer refuses to take the cleaner back. I'll be down in Corpus in the next week and a half. That means I can take it to one of your authorized warranty repair centers and they will fix it. How long will this take? Please tell me it won't take another month.
I'll let you know what happens as far as the retailer and returning the cleaner goes.
Shane
Response from product management:
It is being fixed for the future. I know that it's the principle of the matter - that's why you called to begin with.
If the retailer won't take it back the service center should only take a few days....if that.
my response (after returning the cleaner)
Okay, the cleaner has been returned to Best Buy.
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