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Tantalizing review... (Reply to this comment)
by smiles33
My husband is taking me here for my birthday next week and I am just drooling in anticipation. I love gnocchi and hope they will have it on the menu. Thanks for taking the time to craft such a lovely review of your dining experience!
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Sep 14, 2010
9:06 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Extremely well written review! (Reply to this comment)
by tennis_player
Kate,
We travel all around but I would guess most would be EastBay.
You're so right about the "quality/quantity" recognition idea. But, many restaurants go way overboard to impress diners with humungous portions as a way to attract clientle. My feeling is that it has to be good food, first and foremost. Then, give the customer enough to satisfy their palate but not to impress or stuff them to death!
And, yes it is easier for a place to substitute quantity for quality. Anyone can make huge servings but not everyone can produce high-quality, fine food and present/serve it well!
And, I dislike places that charge too much for corkage fees. Even worse is when they limit you to 2 bottles! Please!
Jim
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Apr 16, 2006
2:41 am PDT
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Re: Re: ..... (Reply to this comment)
by prfstars
I think patrons should be able to save money by bringing their own wine. There's no point at all in bringing an $8 bottle of wine if it's going to cost two or three times that amount for drinking it in a restaurant.
That's a slippery slope. What if patrons ask to bring in their own special prosciutto and melon to save money on appetizers?
I don't know much about wine laws across state lines, but I do know that BYOB laws vary widely. One state's laws make it worthwhile, but another's ban it entirely.
From restauranteurs' perspective, BYOB can be a blessing or a curse. I know of at least one restaurant here in Portland with excellent bistro-type food and a very liberal corkage policy. They've positioned themselves as a BYOB-friendly place, and they encourage large gatherings. For every place like this, though, there are ten restaurants that have invested huge sums in well-stocked cellars. They craft their wine lists to complement their menus, and they hire wine stewards to help customers make good choices. Every bottle that a customer brings in represents a lost sale.
On the flip side, some restaurants undermine their wine programs with ridiculous mark-ups. I had an outstanding Alsatian Riesling at a restaurant last week for 50% above retail-- perfectly reasonable. I've seen mark-ups of 300% at restaurants in Vegas, and even on a cheap bottle of wine, I'd drink tap water just on principle.
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Apr 14, 2006
3:24 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Extremely well written review! (Reply to this comment)
by lyagushka
No worries, Jim.
I" don't mind the smaller portions unless they become so small that if a diner chose to only have a small salad and a single entree that they would go away hungry."
I agree.
I also think that the American norm of huge servings is ridiculous, especially in light of the fact that there is great uproar about general obesity within the population.
Absolutely. I think one of the worst things about American culture is our seeming inability to distinguish quality from quantity, and the assumption that anything small is bad. No one wants a small car, small eggs, a small refrigerator or small portions in restaurants. Bigger isn't always better.
I look forward to more of your restaurant reviews too. Seems like you might be more down in the south bay, and I rarely make it down there. But it's good to have a sense for the restaurant scene in an area I don't know too much about.
all the best,
Kate
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Apr 8, 2006
11:22 am PDT
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Re: ..... (Reply to this comment)
by lyagushka
Melissa,
Interesting article. I rarely bring my own bottle of wine into a restaurant in California. When I do, it's a special bottle of wine, and I never bring more than one. So if I have to cough up another $15-$25 for corkage, that might mean my cost to drink that wine is $75. I think patrons should be able to save money by bringing their own wine. There's no point at all in bringing an $8 bottle of wine if it's going to cost two or three times that amount for drinking it in a restaurant.
I concede that some charge is fair. There are labor costs to opening bottles and washing glasses. But I'd rather see a breakage charge applied if breakage actually occurs, with a smaller corkage fee to cover labor. I just find it very hard to stomach $18 per bottle when only two wine glasses get used. I think waiving corkage for one bottle for two diners would be an especially nice selling point for a restaurant.
Perhaps my attitude has something to do with having family in Pennsylvania. Liquor licenses are so expensive and so hard to come by that a very large percentage of restaurants there never even attempt to get one. All but the fanciest restaurants allow BYOB, and I haven't ever been charged any corkage fee at all in a PA restaurant. BYOB is definitely the norm when dining out in PA. So if Pennsylvania restaurateurs can make that business model work, it seems logical to me that California restaurants could find a way to charge me less than $18 for the privilege of drinking my own wine. Doncha think?
cheers,
Kate
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Apr 8, 2006
10:54 am PDT
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Re: Re: Extremely well written review! (Reply to this comment)
by tennis_player
Kate,
For some reason, I did not receive notice of your comment until today!
How very nice to take the time and interest in your detailed reply to my comment!!! Those were very thoughtful comments and I can tell you are a very detailed person.
Regarding Chez Panisse, yes, they are smaller than most typical places today. But, it's not just the smaller portions. I don't mind the smaller portions unless they become so small that if a diner chose to only have a small salad and a single entree that they would go away hungry.
I also think that the American norm of huge servings is ridiculous, especially in light of the fact that there is great uproar about general obesity within the population.
And, you're right about Italy - so many courses and so little room in the tummy!
I also agree with you, totally, about A Cote.
And, I have always liked your reviews and added you to my WOT back in '04.
I'm looking forward to more reviews from you!
Jim
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Apr 8, 2006
2:53 am PDT
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..... (Reply to this comment)
by prfstars
One drawback to Oliveto is its high corkage fee of $18. I think this is steep enough to seem punitive, rather than just sufficient to cover labor costs and breakage risk. I respect a restaurant's need to make a profit, but I've always felt that excessive corkage fees are an unfriendly gesture towards paying customers.
Kate, I always cringe at corkage, but there was an interesting article in the SF Chronicle today that addresses this issue.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/06/WIGRPHVGP975.DTL
As wine enthusiasts, Steve and I often take our own bottles to restaurants for special occasions. At one dinner a few weeks ago, we met three friends at a restaurant, and between us, we took five bottles of wine. The restaurant waived corkage since we're regulars and we shared tastes with the staff, but I realized that at one point, we had fifteen of their good wine stems on our table!
$18 is on the high side nationally, but for CA, it's not bad. Here in Portland, I'm happy to report, typical corkage is $10-$15 at most places.
-Melissa
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Apr 7, 2006
2:57 pm PDT
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Re: Extremely well written review! (Reply to this comment)
by lyagushka
Hi Jim,
Thanks for taking the time to comment on this review. I certainly admit that Oliveto's portions are on the small side. I can understand those that find this bothersome; it's just that I don't.
You said:
In our experience, the portion sizes in France were smaller but not so in Italy. If anything, every meal we had in Italy was a royal feast with many courses starting at 8 PM and lasting to midnight! I can assure you the portions were NEVER EVER SMALL.
I believe you. At the same time, in our travels in Italy, particularly outside of the three big cities (which probably cater a bit more to tourists), we did see smaller portions. Italian portions were certainly larger than those in France, but at the same time smaller than American portions. This never troubled me at all, because Italian meals are organized into more courses than Americans usually have in one meal. So I definitely got my fill and I got to try more things. I found it easy enough to tuck into an antipasto, a primo and secondo, followed by dessert when in Italy because the portions were reasonably sized. And I could still get up from the table. I simply couldn't do that in an American restaurant.
You did a great job on your review of Oliveto also, and I respect your opinion too.
You continued: "...Olivetto's used to be one of our favorite places and after an absence, went back and was terribly disappointed because of the extreme high cost for the very small portions. I felt guilty giving it a lower rating. But, I think what really capped it for me was the fact that when I complained, while they apolgized for the lack of wonderfully warm service, when it came to the portions issue, they, basically assumed a "take it or leave it" attitude."
I don't think you should feel guilty at all for whatever rating you give a restaurant. You gave good reasons for your rating. There's no excuse for bad service at a restaurant of this caliber. You're certainly paying for good service at Oliveto. I think their "take it or leave it" attitude about portions is a bit more understandable though. While I can understand being disappointed with a small amount of food, clearly, their portion sizes aren't accidental. This has been a conscious decision on the part of management. The portions they give are what they've decided they can give for the prices charged. So I can understand that being a sticking point, much as that may irritate.
BTW, the portions at Chez Pannise were larger than Oliveto. True. But don't you think that even those portions are more "reasonable" than many American restaurants offer?
We just think there are other places that are as good but not so snooty or expensive. Can't argue there. I'm pretty sure I gave A Cote five stars compared with Oliveto's four. That place has a great atmosphere, very good food and a fun, unpretentious vibe.
Thanks for all your thoughtful remarks, Jim.
all the best,
Kate
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Apr 2, 2006
9:13 am PDT
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Extremely well written review! (Reply to this comment)
by tennis_player
Kate,
You've done a first rate job of expressing your opinion. And, I agree that the food quality is excellent, too. But, I disagree regarding the serving portions.
You had stated, "Prices at Oliveto are high, and the portions are usually modest. This runs directly counter to the American perception that you aren't getting value for your money unless you leave a restaurant feeling stuffed and clutching a burgeoning bag of leftovers (which will probably not appeal after being nuked the next day). Europeans, on the other hand, are quite willing to pay for the labor that goes into creating outstanding cuisine served in portions that don't contribute to morbid obesity and heart disease. Personally, I think $110 for a memorable meal for two is a reasonable indulgence from time to time."
In our experience, the portion sizes in France were smaller but not so in Italy. If anything, every meal we had in Italy was a royal feast with many courses starting at 8 PM and lasting to midnight! I can assure you the portions were NEVER EVER SMALL.
In my review, I had stated that Olivetto's used to be one of our favorite places and after an absence, went back and was terribly disappointed because of the extreme high cost for the very small portions. I felt guilty giving it a lower rating. But, I think what really capped it for me was the fact that when I complained, while they apolgized for the lack of wonderfully warm service, when it came to the portions issue, they, basically assumed a "take it or leave it" attitude.
I also listed the other nice places in the East Bay that we consider to be excellent dining places that are much better values. BTW, the portions at Chez Pannise were larger than Oliveto.
And, the couple we had as guests agreed that it was exceedingly high priced for what little we received even though it was excellent cuisine.
We just think there are other places that are as good but not so snooty or expensive.
But, it's still a fine review and I respect your opinion.
Jim
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Mar 31, 2006
11:20 am PST
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Re: completely unrelated but (Reply to this comment)
by lyagushka
Hey, Sean! Isn't that a really neat thing? There's a book out, apparently. But I think it's a better return on investment just to watch the site week after week. Some of the postcards really are incredibly moving, others very sad or scary or funny. I know I've been tempted to send one in from time to time.
Thanks for taking the time to tell me you looked at it and liked it.
all the best,
Kate
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Mar 31, 2006
6:32 am PST
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completely unrelated but (Reply to this comment)
by snpmurray
PostSecret was moving. Thanks.
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Mar 30, 2006
8:44 am PST
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