Sellier & Bellot .30 Carbine – About As Good As It Gets
Written: Oct 14 '09 (Updated Dec 22 '09)
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Product Rating:
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Pros: Excellent accuracy; Solid function; Good ejection; Good Cases
Cons: Occasional tight primer pockets for reloaders
The Bottom Line: A solid, functional cartridge with excellent consistency; providing above average accuracy.
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| morilla's Full Review: Sellier & Bellot .30 Carbine Ammunition |
I’ll say it right up front, the Sellier & Bellot .30 Carbine 110 gr. FMJ has become my favorite load for the M1 Carbine – that most misunderstood, maligned, and misused old warhorse. In a nutshell, the .30 Carbine was and is, essentially, comparable in power/performance to a handgun cartridge, fired from a small, light rifle; the greater sight radius of the carbine providing troops a greater potential for accuracy than with a standard sidearm at moderate ranges. ‘Gun-writer’ Mike Venturino came to this same conclusion in an article entitled “The U.S. .30 Carbine” appearing in the December 2008 issue of Handloader (see review link below): “…Therefore in practical effect, if not on purpose, the U.S. government/Winchester collaboration resulted in a .30-caliber magnum handgun cartridge that happened to initially be chambered in a carbine…” (p. 49)
When it comes to the Carbine, most fall into one of two camps: love it – or – hate it. The trouble is that most discussion rarely focuses on the actual, inherent qualities of the weapon and even less about the potential of the cartridge. If one argues that the 9mm Luger is an ‘effective’ cartridge for military use, with its velocity compensating for its lack of mass (uh… see my reviews) and the higher magazine capacity potential, but then states that the .30 Carbine is/was ‘ineffective’ or ‘inefficient’ or ‘unsuitable,’ one need note that: 1.) as with the 9mm, the .30 Carbine doesn’t do its ‘best work’ with ‘ball ammunition,’ (2.) the most common 9mm FMJ currently available is the 115 gr. at roughly 1,200 feet per second velocity (f.p.s.), where the .30 Carbine FMJ is 110 gr. moving at 1,955 f.p.s. fired from a weapon with greater accuracy potential for the average shooter than virtually any 9mm military sidearm at distances beyond 25 yards, and (3.) the M1 Carbine’s standard magazine holds 15 rounds, with 30 round magazines readily available. In other words, if we accept the arguments for the Carbine as a substitute for a sidearm that were a major factor in its adoption by the military, then the ‘logic’ used to defend the 9mm Luger only serves to further the case for the .30 Carbine.
What Is Sellier & Bellot?
I’ve got to admit, the first time I heard about Sellier & Bellot and discovered it was made in the Czech Republic, I just couldn’t get John Wayne’s The Green Berets out of my head. In the first portion of the film, a Green Beret “A Team” was giving a demonstration for assembled members of the press and a small group of civilians. (Before I note the specifics, let me say that if you’ve never seen this movie, it’s worth getting just for this scene. Why? You will discover an eerily poignant, almost verbatim, recitation of today’s talking points. Just remember, this film came out in 1968.) During that presentation, a reporter named George Beckworth (David Janssen) got a little ‘aggressive’ in his criticism of the military’s involvement in Vietnam.
Master Sergeant Muldoon (Aldo Ray) and Sergeant “Doc” McGee (Raymond St. Jacques) patiently, rationally, and intellectually respond by sharing the facts with Mr. Beckworth. At the end of this exchange, Muldoon responds to Beckworth’s accusation that this was strictly a war between the Vietnamese people; “It’s their war. Let’s let them handle it.” Muldoon rhetorically asks - “Let them handle it Mr. Beckworth?” – then proceeds to point out the displayed, ‘captured’ weaponry. The last item he drops on the desk in front of Mr. Beckworth – “Ammunition… Czechoslovakian Made. Czech Communist. No sir, Mr. Beckworth. It doesn’t take a lead weight to fall on me or a hit from one of those weapons to recognize what’s involved here is Communist domination of the World…” (Hey. And I didn’t even have to ‘cheat’ by popping the movie in to make sure I remembered it. How’s that?)
If you’re of a certain age, “Czecholsovakian Made. Czech Communist.” holds some meaning for you; i.e. the Warsaw Pact(?). This is particularly true when reading the following snippet from the Sellier & Bellot website: “During its 182-year history, Sellier & Bellot has become one of the most significant world producers of ammunition for small firearms.” However, time marches on. The Berlin Wall fell. The Russians are ‘friendly’ and we no longer look for “Communists” under the bed or in the halls of government…
Uh, well, ummm…
In April of 2009, Sellier & Bellot was placed under the multi-national corporate umbrella of Brazil based CBC - Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos; the same corporate entity which owns MagTech. Such mergers have now become the norm; e.g., ATK which incorporates Speer, Federal, RCBS, et al. The short version is that they produce quality ammunition. I was shocked at just how high quality much of it actually is.
What Did They Want?
In the 1952 movie Carbine Williams, Jimmy Stewart portrays David Marshall Williams, the man who came up with the “Williams short tappet principle;” what became the design basis for the M1 Carbine. While this principle isn’t directly the issue, a portion of the title is. The .30 Carbine cartridge is just that, a cartridge intended for use in a carbine. Webster’s defines the word “carbine” as: “a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush.” Note the descriptors light and supplementary for these are the critical parameters from which much of the praise and criticism of the cartridge stems.
With the changing nature of warfare, by the mid-1930’s the U.S. military had decided it needed a personal weapon for troops whose duties precluded carrying a full-sized rifle. The trouble was that the vaunted .45 pistol had its limitations; primary of which were the magazine capacity and the fact that it takes considerable practice/training for all but the naturally gifted to be able to effectively/accurately shoot a pistol beyond a few yards. In fact, as Paul Wahl states it in his 1964 book entitled Carbine Handbook: The Complete Manual and Guide To U.S. Carbine, Cal. .30, M1:
“…It was recognized that the .45 Automatic Pistol, then issued to such personnel, was at best a 50-yard weapon and that few soldiers could hit anything with it at distances beyond 25 yards…” (p. 7)
As a result, according to Ruth and Duff on page 3 of their The M1 Carbine Owner’s Guide (1999), the following characteristics for a new, light rifle were issued: 1.) weight not to exceed 5 lbs., (2.) effective up to 300 yards, (3.) carried by sling or comparable device, and (4.) chambered for .30 caliber cartridge. Without going into a more detailed timeline in the M1 Carbine’s development, we’ll take note of Wahl’s statement, again on page 7, regarding the .30 Carbine cartridge: “Essentially this cartridge, with some modifications, was approved for standardization on September 30, 1941 and designated ‘Cartridge, Cal. .30 M1.’ From inception to completion, this development project took only about six months.”
There you have the crux of it. The military wanted a light rifle to substitute for a pistol as a defensive weapon to supplement (not serve as) a main battle rifle; i.e., a supplemental arm which could add to the capabilities of troops who did not ordinarily utilize a full-sized rifle, but might need more capability than a pistol would provide. As Stephen Bull states in his Encyclopedia Of Military Technology And Innovation (2004): “…Later complaints that it lacked range and stopping power are perhaps unfair, because it was intended to be used only in instances where pistols and submachine guns could also be employed…” (p. 158)
What Did/Does It Do?
S.L.A. Marshall, noting that U.S. Marine criticism of the M1 Carbine (and especially the full auto, M2 version) during the Korean War was particularly virulent, provides some interesting anecdotal reporting regarding the .30 Carbine lacking power, being inaccurate, and performing sluggishly in extreme cold; a factor which can greatly influence the performance of most cartridges, but to which ‘handgun’ cartridges are particularly susceptible. However, if you read these accounts carefully, there is a certain level of contradiction...
“There is practically no data bearing on the accuracy of the carbine at ranges in excess of 50 yards… Where carbine fire had proved killing effect, approximately 95 percent of the time the target was dropped at less than 50 yards… witnesses who said that they had fired at an enemy soldier under conditions where there was no doubt that the bullet had struck him in a vital part of the body, and that he had kept on coming… But the main reason my men lost confidence in the carbine was because they would put a bullet right in a [descriptor removed] chest at 25 yards range, and he wouldn’t stop. This happened to me. The bullet struck home; the man simply winced and kept on coming. There were about half a dozen of my men made this same complaint; some of them swore they had fired three or four times, hit the man each time, and still not stopped him…” – (Battlefield Analysis Of Infantry Weapons: Korean War, p. 51)
Interestingly, we hear precisely the same types of anecdotal evidence about our current military cartridges/weapons (the 9mm and 5.56) coming out of Afghanistan. Here is a section from an article entitled “In Time of War: The Israeli Answer To Terrorism” by noted, long-time firearm’s instructor/author Massad Ayoob:
“…Recent events in Afghanistan have shown the relative impotence of 9mm ball compared to the same style of .45 caliber ammunition that has been in historical evidence since before WWI. GIs in Afghanistan report that Al-Qaeda fighters are absorbing multiple 9mm ball rounds from the issue Berettas before going down, but tend to drop to one or two solid hits with .45 ball fired from the old 1911 style guns still in use by Delta Force.
The medium-caliber handgun cartridge such as the 9mm (.355” bullet diameter) or the .38 Special (.357” bullet diameter) requires an expanding bullet to best do its job of stopping human assault, while the .45 (.452” bullet diameter) has a long history of shutting off attacks with ball type ammo…” – see http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob81.html
There are further rumors that many of the troops feel that while the M4 Carbine is adequate for urban combat, convoy duties, patrols, and ranges out to roughly 300 yards, the range and knockdown power of the M14 rifle, utilizing the .308 or 7.62 round, would be preferable in the mountains. (Which, by the way, is the type of terrain much of the Korean War was fought through.) If any of this sounds familiar, you’ll note my emphasis on the word carbine. In other words, even though many of our troops are now armed with the carbine version of the M16 rifle, as with troops who carried the M1 Carbine, it has not proven a true replacement for a full-sized battle rifle; even though the 5.56 cartridge is often pronounced more ballistically efficient than the .30 Carbine.
Does the term ball ammunition, potentially, provide the proper insight? ‘Ball’ ammo was designed to feed reliably, penetrate, and be durable; i.e., it won’t deform when stored, carried, or while being fed from a magazine or clip the way soft point and some hollow point ammunition will. ‘Ball’ ammunition does not rely on a combination of velocity, bullet design, materials, and target composition to expand as intended; it simply doesn’t expand. As Lt. Colonel John George states regarding the .30 carbine in his WWII memoir entitled Shots Fired In Anger (1981): “The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the Japanese bullet proof vests… It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than two hundred yards…” (p. 394) In other words, ‘ball ammo’ was made to punch holes; not expand or fragment.
According to ORDNANCE FIELD SERVICE TECHNICAL BULLETIN NO. 23-7-1, CARBINE, CAL. .30, M1, March 17, 1942:
“CARTRIDGE, CAL. .30, M1. -- a. This cartridge (Figure 22) can be identified by its characteristic shape and size, which differ considerably from all other cal. .30 cartridges. The nose of the bullet is round and the cartridge case is cylindrical throughout. The complete assembly is 1.68 inches in length and weighs approximately 195 grains.
b. The average velocity of the bullet at 53 feet from the muzzle is 1900 feet per second; The approximate maximum range 2000 yards; and the maximum chamber pressure 40,000 pounds per square inch.
c. The limit of accuracy at 100 yards is a mean radius of 1.5 inches and at 400 yards, 4 inches.” (p. 59)
As Wahl stipulates: “For want of a better means, cartridges are commonly compared on the basis of their exterior ballistics; of course, there are numerous factors (mostly variable) involved in killing power besides bullet weight, velocity, and energy, for which ballistics tables give figures. However, if you consult such data, you will find that the .30 Carbine is more nearly comparable in ballistic performance to the .357 Magnum, a rather potent handgun cartridge, than to any other caliber…” (p. 77)
That being the case, why would we tout the performance of handgun cartridges such as the 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum, with all the ‘tweaking’ and utilization of hollowpoint and/or soft point bullets, then condemn the .30 Carbine as ineffective based on the ball ammunition used by the military; especially when the only ‘adjustment’ the cartridge requires is a change of bullet type, not even a change in powder charge or bullet weight? (If you don’t believe my experience, which jibes nicely with Venturino’s, you’ll note that Remington lists both their 110 gr. Metal Case [FMJ – ball] and their 110 JSP factory ammunition with exactly the same specs.) In addition, why would (or should) we expect a ‘handgun’ cartridge to perform at ranges typically reserved for rifle ballistics?
A Standard For Evaluation
In .30 Carbine, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) standards call for a velocity of 1,965 f.p.s. at 15 feet from the muzzle of a 20” barrel with a 110 grain bullet. The trouble is that this is +/- 90 f.p.s.; giving a theoretical range of 1,875 – 2,055 f.p.s. That’s a pretty significant variation. While it may be useful in addressing differences between manufacturers and does, in fact, encompass the range of listed velocities from several modern producers, I certainly wouldn’t like to see that much inconsistency within a box of ammo from a single company.
Exacerbating the problem with SAAMI standards is the fact that a 20” test barrel was used. Problem: M1 Carbines, the weapon the cartridge was designed for, have an 18” barrel. According to SAAMI, there is an approximate change in velocity of 5 f.p.s. for every 1” change in barrel length with cartridges having a muzzle velocity of up to 2,000 f.p.s. That means, given the 2” difference between test barrel and an actual M1 Carbine barrel, a reduction of about 10 f.p.s.; giving an average velocity of 1,955 f.p.s. with a range of 1,865 – 2,045. Interestingly, this 1,955 f.p.s. average precisely matches Venturino’s claimed chronographed results with the Lake City military surplus loads he used to establish a standard for evaluating his handloads in the above cited article (p. 54).
Original, military specifications almost match this arithmetic; with the average velocity of the bullet expected to be 1,900 feet per second at fifty-three feet from the muzzle. Though pretty much the same as SAAMI’s extrapolated 1,955 f.p.s. at 15 feet; there’s a plus or minus factor inherent to such a correlation. However, I feel pretty comfortable in accepting the standard average velocity to be 1,955 f.p.s. for ball ammunition once used by the military; making it a relevant and useful standard average for our testing purposes.
An acceptable, standard range is much more problematic. If we were to stick with SAAMI’s plus/minus of 90 f.p.s., we’d end up with a range of 1,865 – 2,045 f.p.s. While that may sound reasonable, in terms of both reliable weapons function and potential accuracy, that’s a pretty extreme spread from a single manufacturer. In this case, we might be better off looking toward the standard deviation (SD); i.e., how close each shot in a string is to the ‘average’ velocity. Stated simply, the lower the standard deviation, the ‘better’ or more consistent the ammunition. While I may strive for and expect a relatively low standard deviation from my handloads, I simply don’t have that much faith in factory ammo; particularly ‘budget’ (non-match) lines. Therefore, an SD between 10 and 20 is what I hope for in factory loads; with anything below 10 making me ecstatic as that is about as good as it’s gonna get in production ammunition.
Sellier & Bellot Factory Specs
.30 Carbine FMJ 110 gr.
Velocity (ft./sec.) = 1,991 at the muzzle
A ‘zero’ of 109 yards is provided; with a notation of +0.7 inches at 55 yards. Given the above discussion, I find that credible vis a vis reasonable performance expectations for the caliber and the results (which we’ll discuss in a moment) of the tests conducted.
However, once again, we have to do a little interpolating. Sellier & Bellot list the test barrel as being 23.6” in length. Thus, if we subtract the difference between this and the standard M1 Carbine’s 18” barrel, then multiply the result by SAAMI’s 10 f.p.s. differential per inch, we’re left with a theoretical velocity loss of 56 f.p.s.; producing an expected average velocity of 1,935 f.p.s.; i.e., just a touch less than the old military standard.
Chronograph Results
I set up a Chrony F1 (chronograph) and measured a distance 15 feet from the muzzle in accordance with SAAMI; a distance sufficient to mitigate the muzzle blast’s potential to influence the chronograph results in this caliber. As quality GI model carbines are getting scarce (not to mention hideously expensive), all testing was done offhand with an IAI M888 Carbine. (For those not familiar with this model, it is an M1 Carbine made to GI specifications. If you got a good one, you’re a happy camper. If not, well… You can read up on them here - m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_iai.html) The elevation was 5,500 ft., on a clear day with temperatures hovering right at 70 degrees F and relative humidity between 35% and 40%.
Bearing in mind that I am not a ‘gun writer’ with access to manufacturer’s in terms of obtaining ‘donated’ ammunition for testing, the sample size is, of necessity, a bit small. Be that as it may, 10 rounds from two different boxes/lots of Sellier & Bellot .30 Carbine 110 FMJ to establish the following results:
Mean Velocity = 1,875.67 f.p.s.
High = 1,907 f.p.s.; Low = 1,842 f.p.s. – ES (Extreme Spread) = 65 f.p.s.
Standard Deviation (SD) = 18.214
These results put it notably below the standard and adapted SAAMI specs, as well as the standard military load insofar as average velocity. As I said, I hope for an SD between 10 and 20 in a factory load. The SD of 18 is, therefore, more than acceptable; particularly for ‘value’ or ‘budget’ ammunition.
I had no Failures to Feed (FTF) or Failures to Eject (FTE). In fact, it was the only .30 Carbine ammo tested that day which consistently (read that always) ejected the cases to the right and rear (approximately 5 – 6 ft. at 5 o’clock) in a very nice, small group. Juxtaposed to the PMC .30 Carbine’s very annoying tendency to eject straight up, with the occasional flare of unburned powder, and then come straight back down to hit the carbine’s handguard, this attribute was most welcome.
Accuracy…
As noted in my other review of .30 Carbine ammunition, given the above discourse on the purpose of the carbine, I did not feel any particular pressure to ‘shoot for distance.’ It’s probably a good thing in that I do not currently have access to an ‘official’ range. I won’t go into the reasons; suffice to say I’ve been ‘invited,’ but there are ‘issues’ I find run somewhat against the grain of my sense of aesthetic. With BLM cracking down as regards shooting on ‘their’ land (don’t get me started on that), I’m forced to find my shooting opportunities on Forest Service lands. While our USFS guys and gals in the region are pretty good eggs about this kind of stuff, it is a bit difficult to find an open stretch of country that isn’t shooting toward a road, in the direction of ‘human activity,’ isn’t congested with trees/bushes/limbs, and is over a few yards in length.
I did manage to pace off a good 60 yard range (call it an honest 50 yard-plus distance), with a slight downhill slant. I had no rest, manufactured or impromptu; so a human silhouette (“B-27”) target was attached to the remainder of a deadfall trunk. All rounds expended were grouped sufficiently to stay quite well inside the “9” ring shooting off hand, rapid fire, without a sling. Now, I know I said the same thing about the PMC .30 Carbine; but, that doesn’t tell the whole story.
First, the Sellier & Bellot created a recognizably tighter group than the PMC at that range; which is consistent with its notably tighter SD than the PMC. It was my own lack of shooting over the last decade or more that kept this ammunition from staying entirely in the “10” ring. How do I know?
One of the reasons I decided to test this ammunition was an afterthought from a day where I was shooting pistols. I had just picked up a box of the Sellier & Bellot .30 Carbine and had a carbine with me “just in case” – you know… Anyway, after I was done with the pistols. I quickly stoked the magazine with 5 rounds; just to function test the ammo you understand. I lined up at the measured 25 yard mark I’d been using for the pistols and quickly sent all five rounds into a fresh target. Satisfied that the ammunition would function the weapon, I put the weapon back in the case, packed away my stuff in the pickup, then went over to collect the target. As I drew close, I almost discovered through first-hand experience that a bear most definitely can defecate in the woods without conscious thought…
Staring me in the face was a 1 1/4” group. If we got rid of the ‘flyer’ and counted the other four shots, the group measures just a hair under 1”. Remember, while the distance was only 25 yards, this was offhand, no sling, rapid fire; i.e., squeeze trigger, sights settle back on target, squeeze trigger, sights settle back… in quick, rhythmic succession. Not quite as fast as you could dump ‘em, but definitely no mucking about between trigger squeezes. If you add to this the fact that 25 – 50 yards is precisely the optimal distance for this cartridge, I knew we might have something here. I mean, I certainly don’t shoot that good no more; so, it couldn’t have been the shooter…
An Issue For Reloaders
In a sense, Sellier & Bellot cases are every bit as good as Winchester’s. As I’ve noted in my other ammunition reviews, I never load a case to failure. For autoloading firearms, I do around 5 or 6 loads and then deposit said case in the brass bucket and the Sellier & Bellot has held up well under those parameters. This is why I didn’t quite understand the rumors I was hearing about guys leaving these cases on the range while policing all the other brass.
I learned that part of the trouble stemmed from the fact that while most of the Sellier & Bellot ammunition is Boxer primed, certain of their ‘low-end’ series are Berdan primed; with unconfirmed rumors floating around that a Berdan primed case slips through now and again. (In fact, Sellier & Bellot actually markets Berdan primers.) One source informs me that you used to be able to tell by the red sealant visible on the base of the case. However, as I pointed out, even the Boxer primed ammunition now comes with this red ‘marker;’ making it impossible to tell at a glance. With a rumor being as good as a ‘fact’ in many circles, I can see where many shooters wouldn’t figure it was worth the trouble.
Based on my personal experience, however, I think the main culprit is the fact that every few cases in a given box will have very tight primers. The first time I reloaded Sellier & Bellot brass, I had several cases “pop the top” on my Lee Decapping Die; it’s designed to have the pin emerge from the top of the die if too much pressure (enough to potentially damage the pin) is exerted attempting to remove a primer. While an irritating circumstance, it is decidedly preferable to breaking a pin; something I would certainly have accomplished with an ordinary decapping die. How do I know that? Because, I dug out my Lee Decapping Pin and Base, the one every Classic Lee Loader (see link below) contains. The way the Lee Decapping Pin and Base works is you set the case in the base, insert the pin through the case mouth until it touches bottom, then gently tap the top of the pin with a plastic headed hammer. Well, though you don’t have to ‘ring the bell,’ some of the Sellier & Bellot primers take a bit more than a gentle ‘tap.’ On the other end, such tight primer pockets can create issues with slightly ‘large-ish’ primers.
It’s just something to be aware of…
Final Thoughts
Cabela’s has Sellier & Bellot .30 Carbine 110 gr. listed for $22.99 per box of 50 – when they have it. That gives you a good benchmark when it comes to pricing. I’ve never seen this caliber of Sellier & Bellot available locally. As with all .30 Carbine ammunition recently, it is sporadically available online. It’s also not that much more expensive than what it will cost you to reload it; components also being a hit-and-miss proposition these days.
Think of it this way… If you practice with the more economical 110 grain .30 Carbine ball ammunition, the very type of ammunition being reviewed, but use 110 grain jacketed soft points (JSP) for ‘serious’ work (e.g., self-defense or hunting), you are using the rough equivalent of .357 Magnum hollow/soft points; with the range (say 100 – 125 yards maximum) advantages a carbine provides over a handgun. While this will never be the sheer brute force of .308 or .30-06, it was never intended to be and you don’t confront the same penetration issues; a significant factor if thinking in terms of self-defense. Remember, civilians are not limited by the same prohibitions which often inhibit the military.
Unfortunately, .30 Carbine JSP ammunition is a topic for a different review…
Review Cited Above
With Apologies to Dirty Harry: A Publication Has Got To Know Its Limitations
The Classic Lee Loader: Nearly As Useful As The .30-06 Itself For Tyro Or Pro
Other Ammunition Reviews
PMC .45 ACP Ammunition – 230 Grains Of Series 70 Fodder
PMC 9mm Luger – 115 Grains Of Pretentiousness
PMC .223 Remington – If I Had A Choice…
PMC .30 Carbine – It Functions The Bolt, As For The Rest…
Sellier & Bellot .45 ACP – Say It Ain’t So…
Sellier & Bellot 9mm Luger – It’s An European Cartridge… What’d You Expect?
Sellier & Bellot .223 Remington – Is It Really 5.56mm?
Winchester USA 5.56mm - "White Box" Is Something Of A "Gold Standard"
Recommended:
Yes
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