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CORRECTION! (Reply to this comment)
by ficlopri
It was George Coe playing Ted's boss in Kramer vs. Kramer. Not Bill Moor (sp?).
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Apr 19 '03
10:16 am PDT
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CORRECTION! (Reply to this comment)
by ficlopri
It was George Coe playing Ted's boss in Kramer vs. Kramer. Not Bill Moor (sp?).
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Apr 19 '03
10:12 am PDT
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wow......to quote Donkey in Shrek, "I'm gonna need a lotta therapy!" (Reply to this comment)
by suepera
Wow.......
After reading the back in forth on whether or not people can change, I dunno if I am sure of anything now! I AM sure that after all, these are just movie reviews! whew!
I will admit I too thought that it was a little rigid to say that no ONE can change in a year. I am going through many changes myself and I do believe that when we are in a drastic situation, we sometimes have to change to "survive."
But I think what cripper means is that the basic personality of a person doesn't change that much or that quickly (or maybe he doesn't:). A person being happy or patient or easily irritated or impatient, for example, is something that I believe, to some extent is hardwired. A parent (like mine) can have 3 children, the basic parenting for all 3 is approximately the same. But even from an early age, you can see what kinda personality a baby has. And the disposition of a person doesn't usually change that much. I think the reason it was shown so quickly in the movie was for the sake of breivity and pacing in the movie itself.
Anyway, the only thing I saw that was suspect, was saying it was his neighbor, Margaret that caused Billy to fall. She just didn't catch him, but it wasn't her fault he fell. Now maybe if she waved a Hershey's bar in front of him while playing on the jungle gym, then maybe! ;)
I am very impressed with the reviews of yours that I've read. You are very intelligent & well written, especially for a 17-18 year old! I think your writing is outstanding.
Thanks,
~ Susan/suepera
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Aug 09 '02
11:13 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
You're absolutely right, and I agree with you, although the paragraph about how I am wise might be seen as rather sarcastic by some ;)
Your example is a good one, and you could make it even more simple just by using the example that men are taller than women. One can, in normal discourse, say that men are taller than women, because by and large they are. Statistically, they are. Etcetera. And, one must assume that the person certainly doesn't mean that ALL men are taller than ALL women.
The difference is that you said that people can't change, which is an absolute statement, and the context of what you were saying further reinforces the idea that you think it is absolute.
Quite honestly, apart from minor things that perhaps belie a lack of experience with certain subject matter, I have a hard time believing you're 17. Which is a compliment.
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Jul 19 '02
12:18 pm PDT
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Great review (Reply to this comment)
by SurgRN911
Of a great movie, thanks
Di
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Jul 19 '02
10:00 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by cripper
First of all, thanks for the comment and for saying that I am a pretty intelligent person (as much as I do not want to believe that :)).
You also have to remember that I am 17, and will still say the stupid thing from time to time. Because you are older, you are wiser than I am and are wary of what you say. I am not as wise, so I still might make the odd statement that might seem a bit too judgmental and critical at times.
Looking at the first line of the comment, I never did want to infer that my judgment was absolute. I am just backing it up with the experience I have had. Also, I highly doubt that there are absolute judgments, because in society these days, there will always be exceptions. You could use the examples of Caucasians tending to have higher alcohol tolerance levels than Asian people. This does not mean all Caucasian people have higher tolerance levels than Asian people. Just that according to experience and modern science, it is believed that they tend to have a higher alcohol tolerance level than Asians do. I tried to do that with my judgment on people, but do not have the science to back it up. Sure, I could easily say that it is a result of the social environment that determines whether one is sympathetic and caring or unsympathetic and cold-hearted, but it can never be definitely true that that is the case.
Looking at the rest of the comment, I agree that you have to look beyond experiences. There is more to something than experiences, and your example of the black person does work well in this case.
I'm glad you were not offended by what I said, and thank you for being understanding.
cripper
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Jul 19 '02
8:31 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
If the problem is that things can't be absolute, why is your judgement an absolute? My whole point is that things aren't absolute (in this way), and you defend your absolute judgement by saying that things can't be absolute?
Don't get the wrong idea here cripper. You didn't offend me, and I'm not (really) trying to say that you are wrong or such. If you had offended me, or if I thought there were some horrible thing about what you said, or any such nonsense, I wouldn't have commented at all. I only commented because you seem a pretty intelligent person and it greatly surprised me that you said this.
I understand that this is your experience and so forth, but (if I may say something with a smirk on my face) your experience doesn't matter to such an extreme. I mean, if you are defending your position that people can't change that fast, that's fine with me. You can stick to your position there, and use your experiences as your justification for thinking this is so. As long as I am allowed to say that all black people rob and use drugs.
I am not actually trying to 'judge your judgements'. You can have whatever ideas you want, and if you want to go along with the idea that people simply can't change in this way, at this speed, and if you want to say it once in a while, it's all the same to me.
What I was really aiming at was not the judgement itself, but the use of the judgement. In this review you are putting your opinion out there that this movie has some flaws, and one of those flaws (in your opinion) is that the character is so difficult to believe as to seriously damage the film overall. Nothing wrong with that. But, you say that the character is so difficult to believe because the character changes too quickly and people can't do that. You know people can't do that because you have known some people and they didn't change.
You can think that is true 'til Doomsday for all I care. I'm just saying that there are going to be people who are going to see that as rather goofy.
Imagine the review I write of some movie wherein there is a black character who is a doctor and never robs anyone or does drugs throughout the movie, and I say that the movie as a whole is seriously hurt because of how unbelievable that character is. After all, it has been my experience that black people all rob and do drugs, therefore all black people rob and do drugs, and so how am I supposed to take this character seriously?
Of course, the race card makes it a very different issue, and whether people can or cannot change this fast is, I assume, morally neutral ground, but the way you are thinking is the same. Sure, we are all sort of products of our experiences, and what we think is going to be influenced by what we experience, but you have to think past your experience.
If this is the way things work for you, it's fine with me, and it doesn't offend me at all, and who really cares anyway?
I'm just telling how people might see this. Taking your personal experiences and merely generalizing out from what your experiences have been is basically the most simplistic way of looking at the world, life, and people.
There's nothing 'wrong' with what you said, except its absolute quality. Generally people don't act like this, and the movie made a move away from realism because the character suddenly changed in this way would have been fine. That people can't change (an absolute) is going to make it hard for people to take what you say seriously. After all, unless you are right and there is no such thing as people changing, some people who read your review might know someone who changed suddenly, and then they are going to suddenly wonder what the heck you're talking about.
It's not offensive, if you want to think this is the case, it's merely illogical.
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Jul 19 '02
7:46 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by cripper
Well, it's based on experience. I think one way. You think another. A lot of life is based on experiences, and from my experience, I feel that people do not change quickly. I did, in my review, say that Kramer might have had to adapt quickly to the sudden change, so it could be true that he needed to change in order to be a good father for Billy. I have seen divorces and children from the divorces think their parents have not changed as a result of the divorce.
The problem is nothing can be absolute. I cannot see why we have to have an absolute, because frankly all the judgments we make are not absolute. I made a judgment, and you disagreed with it. You have probably made judgments in your reviews, and I could disagree with what you judge on. It is all based on perception, and we see things differently. If I made a judgment that was offensive, I sincerely apologize.
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Jul 19 '02
5:48 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
Well, frankly, I give up on the issue.
Can people change quickly or not? If they can there isn't anything unbelievable about the character.
But, you say they can't. Well, now you know ten people who haven't changed instead of one. Fine, I know ten black people and all those ten black people I know are armed robbers and drug dealers. Thus, black people are all armed robbers and drug dealers.
Would you like to know 50 people who didn't change suddenly now?
How about if I know people who have changed suddenly?
I know people who have lost their children, suddenly found themselves in foxholes, lost their sight, lost their wives, found out they had cancer, finally realized that if they didn't make certain changes they were going to lose their children to the state, and any number of other situations, and they all changed pretty damn quick.
Even if I wanted to accept your experience as some sort of useful guide for how people can or cannot act, your examples don't mesh with the movie anyway. In the movie, Kramer suddenly lost his wife and suddenly found himself in a vastly different situation. The example you give of your father is the sort of 'before' part of the story. The part of the story where Kramer obviously didn't change either.
Your example isn't of a case where a person's life is suddenly and drastically changed.
And, of course, none of it matters. You can't generalize from your experience to absolute statements about how people are. And, I don't really see it as a relevant criticism in any case. If there was ever a person in the history of mankind who changed suddenly, then it doesn't destroy the character that Kramer does.
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Jul 19 '02
5:01 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by cripper
I apologize if anything I said was unclear, but based on the people that I do know, it is highly unlikely for people to change in such a short period of time. People change gradually. I am impatient at times (and it shows here), and it is not like I will become extremely patient within a period of a year. I am saying that the change shown in Kramer's character is too quick, and am not saying it is impossible. It is gradual. We all change gradually, and the film made it seem that the change was sudden. The problem with some relationships is that two people are different and they refuse to change, and their unwillingness to change results in divorce, and this is even shown in the film. Why did Kramer become so fatherly with just him and his son around and not when the mother was still around? This is just merely my opinion, and I have strong opinions, so from experience, I feel people do not change quickly.
Again, I apologize for anything I have said or confused you over.
cripper
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Jul 19 '02
1:07 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by cripper
Would you like more examples? I personally know of at least 10 different married couples that have ended in divorce. I just don't want to give youtheir names, because I want to protect their privacy. Also, never did I say I only knew one example of a father who could not change. I only asked if my father was a good enough example. I do not want to use other people as examples, that is why I did not include them. Now that I included them, I guess you can't criticize me anymore for using only one example (even though I never did say it was the only one I knew of).
You might want to know why their relationships failed. One reason. One of them was being unsympathetic to the other person and their children. Therefore from the stories I have heard, it helped me form my opinion that the character development of Kramer was too quick. Hope that explains my reasoning behind my judgment.
Thanks for the comment.
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Jul 18 '02
8:58 pm PDT
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Re: Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
No. It doesn't. It is not even in the remotest realms of enough experience to count as a legitimate reason to make such a generalization.
It is, in fact, worse than I would have suspected. I might have assumed that you at least were basing your opinion on many people who have not changed in some way.
You have, by your own admission, one example of a person not changing. One. And you move from that one example to the generalization, not only that people generally don't change, but that people simply do not... cannot.
Suppose I said I only knew one person who was black, and that person robbed a liquor store. Well now, I mean I have my one example, and that's all I need to make a universal generalization right?
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Jul 18 '02
7:50 pm PDT
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Re: .......... (Reply to this comment)
by cripper
Thanks for the comment. Well, does personal experience with my dad count as personal experience with parents that don't change? We've been on the verge of divorce because, as a person, he lacks any sympathy towards my mother. Has he changed? Quite frankly, he has not changed at all, and we still do hear arguments between them because he never cracks and tries to break my mom down emotionally? Is that not enough for personal experience?
I did not include my dad in the review, because I do not really want anyone to know about my family life. He refuses to change his ways, and he is exactly like the Ted Kramer of before. So, I hope this answers my question as to why I do not feel a father cannot change that quickly.
cripper
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Jul 18 '02
8:53 am PDT
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.......... (Reply to this comment)
by Vormancian
It's certainly an insightful review, and as always you express your views admirably.
Some of your criticisms strike me as a little strange though. Now, don't get the idea that this is my favorite movie in the world, it isn't, but it's pretty good if a little overly sappy.
The portion of the review about Hoffman's character, quite honestly, approaches the point at which one just has to laugh.
If you were to say that you thought the character changed a little faster than was realistic, fine. But, to say a person can't change that fast is going a little overboard. They can't? No one can change in a year?
People generally don't change in a year, fine. But that wouldn't destroy the character. Because if people merely generally didn't, then this could be the movie of one person who did. But, no. People can't. Thus, the character is destroyed. We can't believe the character because people can't change that fast, it is simply impossible.
And, knowing that this might seem at least a little bit strange, we are given some justification for this statement. That justification is that it has been your experience that people don't change that fast. What experience? Your many years working with people in traumatic situations? Your long hours studying people's reactions to sudden, life-altering changes?
Now, after all that, is it a pretty legitimate reason not to like the movie or see the movie as flawed? Sure. Do I think you're wrong? Not exactly. But this is how many people are going to perceive this part of your review.
There is really no such thing (when talking about people and suchlike) as a legitimate generalization from personal experience to an absolute.
It has been my experience that people can and do change this much and this fast. So where do we go now? You are only working with your experience, and I have mine. Do I believe you anyway?
Can we make any absolute generalization about people as long as it coincides with our personal experience?
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Jul 18 '02
7:55 am PDT
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I cry buckets (Reply to this comment)
by arjita
anytime I watch this movie.
A very good review.
Arjita
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Jul 17 '02
10:06 am PDT
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! (Reply to this comment)
by dedemw
This movie always made me cry like the lil wimp I am
; )
Good read cripster!
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Jul 16 '02
10:16 pm PDT
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Re: ---- (Reply to this comment)
by cripper
LOL! Too right, Jack. The ending was all too soppy! If I were Hoffmann, I would've gotten that lawyer and tried to get the $15,000 off him! Ah well. Things like this happen in the world of movies (sad, but true).
Thanks for the comment.
cripper
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Jul 16 '02
9:30 am PDT
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