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Re: Jeezus... (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh,  in Cars & Motorsports
With a comment like that, they'll be after you next.
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Nov 12 '05
4:27 am PST
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Jeezus... (Reply to this comment)
by drive571
... who would've guessed an airport-rental-special like the LaCrosse would elicit so much emotion?
- P.J.
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Nov 11 '05
1:48 pm PST
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Re: Stop plugging your Web site; BUY an ad if you want to advertise! (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
I developed the website because I used to include price analyses in my reviews, but they quickly became out-of-date. Similarly, I'd like to provide up-to-date reliability information in my reviews. But I'm not about to go back and update 300 reviews on a monthly basis. The website allows me to provide this information, and is an integral part of these reviews.
In addition, I use section headings to enable skillful readers to quickly jump to the topics that most interest them.
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Aug 06 '05
4:54 am PDT
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Stop plugging your Web site; BUY an ad if you want to advertise! (Reply to this comment)
by paman
You start off with a history of GM through the 1980s, all the cars GM has to compete with and don't get to a REVIEW OF THE CAR until the third paragraph!
Please.....GET TO THE POINT!
I couldn't tell if this was a car review or an infomercial for your Web site!
If you want to advertise, PAY FOR IT like everyone else.
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Aug 03 '05
12:08 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
My comments to you are basically R&R, it's fun laughing at a fool.
As for you statement - my opinion of your opinion is "somehow fact". Thanks for one more dumb remark to laugh at.
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May 29 '05
4:21 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
So why the need for long drawn-out comments? Most of the comments you have made here are far longer than your own review of the car.
Interesting how your opinion of my opinion is somehow fact.
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May 29 '05
5:34 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
Your right. How much of a fool can you make of yourself. Thanks for all the laughs.
My review was exactly as I wanted it, short and to the point. Since I actually have bought and use this car daily, I just wanted to let people know how great this car was. If anyone wants to ask me anthing about this car, they certainly can. I saw no reason to leave a long drawn out review. I know this is opposite of your long drawn out OPINION (since you don't own this car, your meaningless words were based on what - seeing a prototype, looking a pictures, or maybe even a test drive). I'll miss the laughs, but since you seem to think you know everything, I'll likely get to laugh at one of your OPINIONS somewhere else.
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May 28 '05
12:25 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
This has gone enough rounds. There's now more than enough material here for people to make up their own minds.
Why don't you take all of this time and energy and put it into making your own review something worth reading?
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May 27 '05
4:35 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
The politian in you comes out again. Just because you say something doesn't mean everyone will blindly believe you.
You indicate that you know why people rated your poll. Now I know why you think the back seat is cramped, your head is too big. Did you talk to each and every one? Only 12 of the 35 voters (a paltry 34%) even bothered to post. Why did people vote 4 or 5? I'm sure you know even though no one explained why. (remember, you know that people who own a LaCrosse MUST justify their decision). And once again, one of the few posters voted a 3 yet said "this is only from the front from a distant approch. Once besides the car or even from behind it only looks like a LaCrosse." Why don't you ask him if he sees a "Taurus with awkward proportions" as you claim "most" people do.
Actually, I didn't contradict myself at all. It's a very long reach to think that even voting a 3 (some similarity) in any way backs up your claim of "Most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions". Yet because you obviously have a major problem with anyone disagreeing with your opinion, you now come out with another ridiculous statement "The basic fact of the matter is that the majority of people think the LaCrosse resembles a Taurus". If it makes you feel good to say that based on this poll and talking to some people, then power to you. There may be some people who read this that actually believe you, so give yourself a pat. As for contradicting myself, what I said a few times is the poll is useless because there is an unknown bias (who knows how many of those who voted 4 or 5 are friends of yours) and the possibility of someone voting more than once does exist. And since "some similarity" is no where near seeing a "taurus with awkward proportions", the fact is that your poll does indicate that your original comment was an outright LIE. Being the politician you are, you tried to massage the numbers to look like they support you when they clearly don't.
Gee, no kidding that the Buick forum isn't like the presidential election. How surprising it is that you know why "pretty much all of the people" visit the Buick forum.
I wasn't picking at your words, I just repeated what you said. As for your excuse that you use "common" or "tendency" just as a way of not saying "every" or "all", what can I say, I'm laughing to hard to hit the keys. The meaning of the words most, common, and tendency is quite clear to most people. If you just did't want to say every or all, how about some. But heck, that wouldn't have been as powerful as trying to back up your opinion by saying "most people, now would it?
Since you want to review, let's:
I disagreed with your cons.
You said "pricey". I said "Are you kidding me" and said we bought a Lacrosse for thousands less than a comparable 300. Of course a LaCrosse is pricey if your looking for an $18,000 car. Although this was something that you might have been able to try and back up with MSRP numbers, you never did explain what you meant here. I guess my disagreeing with you here wasn't as important to you as me disagreeing with an obvious opinion, "blah exterior".
You said cramped rear seat. I noted my 6'2" friend has plenty of room in the back seat. Your response was the 300 and 500 is much roomier. So that's supposed to make the Lacrosse "cramped"? That's like saying if you don't live in a 5000 sq foot house, that you must be "cramped" in a 4500 sq foot house. Again though, this is something that you could have tried to back up (you likely would have then compared it to a limo), but again this didn't bother you as much as me disagreeing with a pure opinion, "blah exterior".
You said "blah exterior". I disagreed and gave my opinion. These of course were nothing but opinions and this should have ended right there. Instead you have shown repeatedly over the last week that you have a real problem with anyone disagreeing with your OPINION. You first come out with your comedy line of "Most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions." Then you admitted your "most people" was nothing more than some people you had talked to. Of course "most" sounds alot stronger than "some", but it also changed what could have been a truthful statement into something that you can't say for sure unless you talk to everyone. It's called a LIE to try and back up nothing more than an opinion, and now you want to try and claim "most" was just your way of not saying "all". You also one time said, "some people aren't happy unless everyone agrees with their opinion. Paradoxically, these tend to be people who, deep down, aren't too sure of the value of their opinion." Hopefully some day you can understand why you have that problem.
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May 26 '05
4:30 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
People aren't going to even rate the comparison a "2" based on simply having wheels, tires, etc. By this reasoning I could have people compare a Corvette and an H2 and get similar results. To even rate a "2" someone must see some similarity in the cars' designs, in their lines and surfaces. If you were correct that the cars look nothing alike then far more people would be choosing "1."
Even if we ignore the 2s as on the fence we get six 1's (no similarity) and twenty-one 3's to 5's (some to a lot of similarity).
That said, I did speak a little too hastily when saying that none of the comments said they looked nothing alike. The comment you quote from "Mike the Canadian" does say essentially this.
To a certain extent you're contradicting yourself. You say the poll doesn't support my point. Then you say I somehow cheated to get these results. Yes, if all I cared about was making my point and I really, really wanted to put forth a lot of effort to do so I could have done what you suggest. But that would be pathetic.
As for who would be visiting the Buick forum, this isn't exactly the presidential election. There aren't a bunch of people out there who visit a Buick forum so they can bash Buicks for the sheer joy of bashing Buicks. Pretty much all of the people who visit such a forum are Buick fans, even if they might be disappointed in some of Buick's current vehicles. I'd put myself in this category. Maybe you don't realize this, but Buick doens't have a high enough profile to attract trolls (forum-speak for hecklers).
You can pick at my use of words like "common," "tendency," and so forth all you want. They are my way of not saying "every" and "all," as such generalizations would be false. The basic fact of the matter is that the majority of people think the LaCrosse resembles the Taurus. I'm not now, nor did I ever say, the two look exactly alike or that people will confuse one with the other. Let's remember what my review actually says (talking about the prototype I saw on the road):
"I had expected the post-Lutz Buicks to be striking. Instead, the future Buick looked much like a Taurus with a Lexus GS front end. Why style a car to resemble a Ford that most people associate with "rental?" Beats me. Lets just say the exterior styling of the LaCrosse is pleasant enough but won't be pulling in customers all on its own."
I will grant that most people don't perceive the car's proportions as awkward (a word I used in a comment but not in the review itself). But then, if I'd made my original response to your comment with more thought, then I would have remembered that most people don't see proportions at all. When I look at a car my "eye" puts a large emphasis on proportions, as does that of many car designers. (A few years back I spent quite a bit of time inside GM's design studios.) But the general public doesn't really perceive proportions, at least not consciously, and often not at all.
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May 26 '05
7:18 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
The comments I posted supported your summary? Talk about being delusional. If anything, your claim of "most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions" has been proven to be an outright LIE. Yep, the cars have many simularities - tires, taillights, headlights, a hood, a trunk, windows, etc - boy you got me there. Yet even in your useless poll, only 20% voted a 4 or 5. Far cry from "most people".
As for you comment that nobody said "they look nothing alike" - the politician in you comes out again. Your right, nobody used those exact words. But again, you think your words should be believed without verification. How about the one poster who said "I don't really see a resemblance. I have seen them side by side on the road" Yep, not the exact words Mr. President. Now he did say that he confused the Taurus for a buick from far away once, but he didn't say a LaCrosse. And once again, the guy who actually voted a 3 because he confused it from a distant approach, yet admitted once beside the car it "only looks like a Lacrosse". And with those words he voted a 3. Quite a poll you got there.
As for you using multiple names voting, you can claim you didn't. Yet your claims of "most people", "common opinion", people "tended to think", etc, clearly shows that you have no problem claiming things you can't back up. Any reasonable person would admit that the poll is useless because there is an unknown bias and the possibility of one individual voting multiple times exists. You repeat that it's a Buick forum, so what? Do you really believe that only Bush or Kerry supporters posted on their pro candidate boards? And of course, YOU posted on that board. It's pretty naive to put any weight into your poll just because of where it is on the web.
Once again, your original claim that you can't back up is "Most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions". Anyone with the slightest bit of honesty would admit that this was only their opinion using the keywords "most people" to try and make their personal opinion even remotely believable. Only someone who is so unsure about themselves so they can't be happy unless everyone agrees with their opinion wouldn't realize "the time to yield" was days ago.
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May 24 '05
10:18 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
Still satisfied MONTHS down the road? In automotive terms, we're talking about a recent purchase here. If you'd said "three years down the road" then you'd have a point. The LaCrosse simply hasn't been out long enough for many owners to have a change or heart. Not that I expect them to. I'd expect people who liked the car when they bought it to continue liking it unless it turns out to be a disaster from a reliability standpoint.
The rest of your comment is delusional. The comments you post support my summary. These are clearly people who see the similarity--why else would they have to stress that they ALSO notice differences? Note that none of the commenters said "they look nothing alike."
Perhaps I should make one thing clearer: I never said nor intended to say the LaCrosse looks just like the Taurus. There are clearly differences. If I had voted, I would have voted 3 or 4. But the designs are still uncomfortably close together.
Again, this was a Buick forum, full of people who know and love Buicks. Like you, they don't want to think that a Buick looks like a Ford. They will be more likely to see a different car than the general public.
As for suggesting that I voted multiple times under multiple names, well, you're clearly getting desperate and clutching at straws. I didn't vote once, much less multiple times. I didn't even state my own position, as this would have biased people in my favor.
Anyone with the slightest bit of objectivity would know it's time to yield the point.
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May 24 '05
6:10 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
If 100 people buy a product and those 100 people still like the product months later, that would seem to be alot more important to someone looking at a site like Epinions than an opinion by someone who hasn't bought the product and used it daily. It seems if those 100 people are still happy, it's the people who think their opinions based on test drives who are the fools. Obviously you have a low opinion of the average human being. I think the average person will say something if they aren't happy with a purchase. You seem to think that these 100 people would still like the product, irregardless of any problems, simply because they had bought it. I'm sure all retailers would love you to be right, then they could do away with all those time consuming returns. Unfortunately, what you seemed to have learned in Consumer Behavior 101 isn't the real world.
As for your little poll, what was that you said about some people that "deep down, aren't too sure of the value of their opinion"? First off, remember back when you wrote "people I have discussed the car with......". Gee, how many of these people might have voted? How many different "member" names might you have? In other words, the bias in this poll is unknown so it's useless.
But OK, let's play along. The Taurus has tires, so does the LaCrosse. The Taurus has taillights, so does the LaCrosse. Gee you're right - there is a little similarity between the cars.
As you don't seem to understand that people can read old posts, you also seem to think that no one might actually look at your poll site. Are you in politics by any chance? Your claim of what people who voted 2 or 3 TENDED to think is an outright LIE. First (and I could be wrong since this is the 1st time I visited that site), only 12 of the 35 voters left a comment. So how do you know what they all TENDED to think? The only 2 that I see say "many simularities", also note "different presences on the road" and "...but many differences as well". You left out "I voted 2 because once you've seen these cars on the road next to each other, you really see the differences." or "I picked 2 in some aspects the production is similar but I think it's much more refined and elegant than the taurus.", or :The general shapes are similar, but in person, the LaCrosse looks alot better" or "There are more simularities in photos than when you see the car in person". Or how about the one who voted 3 but then wrote "But this is only from the front from a distant approch. Once beside the car or even from behind it only looks like a LaCrosse". Again, he voted 3.
So let's go back to your original claim of "Most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions". Once again, that obviously is your opinion, not "MOST" peoples opinion. But hey, thanks again for another laugh.
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May 23 '05
6:17 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
Self-selection isn't a behavior per se. It simply neatly describes the logical conclusion that those who buy a product / choose a candidate / etc. tend to have a positive view of that product / candidate / etc.
A car could be the worst car in the world that only 100 people buy, but it stands to reason that those 100 people like it, while millions of others do not. If you only surveyed those 100 people you would wrongfully conclude that most people like the car.
As for the Buick's styling, I conducted a little poll to see how full of it I was. I placed this poll in a very pro-Buick place, one where people will tend to see less similarity not more: the Buick forum at cheeraandgears.com, a pro-GM website. I simply asked, "How much exterior styling similarity do you see between the Buick LaCrosse and Ford Taurus?" I did not state my own position or vote. You can see the results after the first day here:
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=37&t=16685&st=0#entry164708
With 1 being "none" and 5 being "a lot", so far there are 6 1's, 12 2's, 10 3's, 2 4's, and 5 5's. In short, 83 percent of those who responded see at least a little similarity between the two cars.
Comments suggest that even people who responded 2 or 3 tended to think, "The cars have many styling similarities, but the Buick is more elegant and I don't mistake one for the other." Which is pretty much how I see the relationship between the cars.
In the interest of getting an accurate reading, I ask that anyone who reads the exchange here not vote or add comments in the poll at C&G.
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May 23 '05
4:32 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
Now you claim you mean "tendency", but clearly you previously wrote "People who already own a LaCrosse must justify a decision that has already been made, and thus tend to see what they want to see." The meaning of MUST is quite clear, and people can read a prior post. But then again, your claims of "most people" and "common opinion" turned out to be you and some people that you say you talked too.
As for people "hunting" for information to justify an already made purchase, I guess there may be some people who do that. However, in my opinion (nope I won't claim it's most peoples opinion)if people aren't happy with a purchase you either bring it back or you tell people your experience hoping it will keep others from buying at that store or dealership. That is the most common reaction I've seen, again from people I've talked to (I wouldn't want to try and mislead anybody who reads this into thinking that "most people" feel this way, since my universe doesn't include everyone). I'm sure you learned many tendencies last semester in Consumer Behavior 101, not just self-selection. The course likely told you how common the different behaviors is too. If the most common behavior is self-selection, obviously those return lines in the stores would be much smaller. And it would make web-sites like Epinion worthless.
I agree that some people aren't happy unless everyone agrees with their opinion. What makes me laugh is when these people try to justify their opinion with ridiculously funny reasons like "Most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions". See, these people also try to justify their opinion by lying that "most people" agree with their "common" opinion, when they have nothing to back these claims but hope it will fool someone.
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May 22 '05
7:05 am PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
There is a strong tendency for people to say positive things about a recent purchase. I say tendency and not "only" or "every" because consumer behavior is never absolute. Similarly, people who have already made a decision tend to hunt around for information that supports this decision and ignore or seek to discredit information that does not support the decision. As for self-selection, it stands to reason that people who buy a product should have a high opinion of it--after all, they bought it. This could well change over time, but with the LaCrosse we're talking about a recent decision. All of this in Consumer Behavior 101. Just open any consumer behavior textbook.
I have absolutely no problem with people liking whatever car they own. But some people aren't happy unless everyone agrees with their opinion. Paradoxically, these tend to be people who, deep down, aren't too sure of the value of their opinion.
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May 21 '05
10:25 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
Your claims of "most People" and "common opinion" is just you and some people you talked too. Thanks for the laugh.
So in your mind, when people buy something they will only say good things to justify their purchase (you're wording is "must justify"). You are kidding right? Or just looking for another laugh. Obviously the "survey research" you've read on this tells how common this is, after all it is research about surveys. So where did you read this? I know I would rather talk to someone who actually owns a product before I buy, rather than to someone who thinks their opinion really means anything after a test drive. Epinions might have a tough time surviving if there was only positive opinions from actual owners.
And thanks again for your Taurus confusion. It was good for another laugh, and hopefully enough people will read it before they put any weight in any of your OPINIONS.
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May 20 '05
2:44 pm PDT
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Re: Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
People who already own a LaCrosse must justify a decision that has already been made, and thus tend to see what they want to see. Or maybe they saw it in the first place--they did buy the car, after all. In survey research this bias is labelled "self-selection."
No formal surveys, but magazine writers and people I have discussed the car with generally see a Taurus with headlights stolen from a Lexus GS. The sharp crease atop the rear fender is the car's main distinguishing feature. I saw a prototype on the road over a year before the car went on sale. My first thought was, "Why are they doing something that looks so much like a Taurus?"
This said, I always tell people that if they like a car that is all that matters.
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May 20 '05
4:19 am PDT
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Re: Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by medan1040
Your opinion on the stying is just that, your opinion. Means absolutely nothing to anyone who can think for themselves. As for your opinion being "fairly common", can you back that up with any surveys - or is that just another meaningless opinion? But thanks for the laugh with the line "a Taurus with awkward proportions", how ridiculously funny. But since you also claimed "most people see", can you back that up with any survey results or do you just think that your opinion is the same as "most people" and is "fairly common"?
Actually my friend had plenty of leg room when the front seat was in an average type position. However, he had enough room that even if the front seat was "well back" he would have had room. The 500 and 300 may be roomier (I actually don't know since EXTRA back seat room wasn't high on my list of choosing a new car), but I don't know any pro basketball players so my LaCrosse will be nice and comfortable (and yes, roomy) for anyone traveling with me.
Perhaps you need to talk to more people who actually own a LaCrosse, rather than making opinions based on a test drive.
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May 19 '05
5:18 am PDT
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Re: Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
The more I see this car, the less I like its styling. Yes, just an opinion. But a fairly common one. Most people see a Taurus with awkward proportions.
The front seat must have been well forward for your friend to have had plenty of legroom. A Ford Five Hundred or Chrysler 300 has a much roomier rear seat.
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May 17 '05
8:14 am PDT
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Just an opinion (Reply to this comment)
by cibdan
The cons in your opinion are way off base. First,Blah exterior - this of course is only your opinion. My opinion is this cars exterior has a classy look. The lines bring back a bit of the old muscle car feel, yet the front end offers a classy look never found on those cars. This car doesn't at first stand out like the 300 or the PT, but then again the looks of the 300 and PT get old fast as you see more on the road.
Second, cramped rear seat - compared to what? My 6'2" friend had plenty of head and leg room in the back.
Third, pricey - are you kidding me? One of the cars we compared while shopping was the 300 you mention. We bought the LaCrosse for thousands less than a comparable 300 (not to mention that the LaCrosse had a better ride).
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May 16 '05
5:39 am PDT
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Re: another great review, lots of detail (Reply to this comment)
by mkaresh, in Cars & Motorsports
D'oh! I wrote in my notes that the LaCrosse lacks a folding rear seat, but it does as you say have one. I think I meant that the LaCrosse, unlike the Grand Prix and Five Hundred, lacks a folding front passenger seat.
My price comparisons include only currently offered incentives. I don't doubt that before long the rebate will climb, though, and have mentioned this in my updated review. I now also mention the considerably lower price of the CXL.
In Canada the LaCrosse is called the Allure because the former has undesirable connotations.
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Dec 30 '04
5:16 am PST
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another great review, lots of detail (Reply to this comment)
by dennyoh
enjoyed reading it! After a while, I would expect you could buy this car at invoice price less $2,500 or more in rebates. (GM tries to discount less on new models.) Do you allow for that in your price comparisons? Also, I think the LaCrosse has folding rear seats. I test drove a Mercury Montego, and was less than excited about it, as you were with the 500. The LaCrosse was much more fun to drive.
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Dec 29 '04
4:55 pm PST
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It's still a Buick... (Reply to this comment)
by hyundai_fan
I think GM is trying to slowly add cars that are appealing to younger buyers instead of making some sports car a la Cadillac because Buicks have the stereotype of being a car company for old people. They are known for the "big car" feel, soft ride, and it's American-built as well (but it's no longer winning buyers thanks to Mercedes, Honda, etc.)
Putting in a sports car or something dramatically different that's aimed towards young buyers would make the Buick lineup look weird. All the other cars in the lineup are typical Buicks, so something totally different would be a jarring difference. Just give GM ten years or so and you might see that they become younger and younger. They already got a minivan (Terraza) and two SUVs (Rainier--I think that's how they spell it--and Renezvous). They might even make something as small as a Kia Rio in the future for all I know.
I like how it is trying to catch younger peoples' attention. And since a Buick is no sports car, I would have expected it to not drive like one, evident when you said it is no sports car even in CXS trim. But come on, it should have had a five-speed manual as standard equipment like on many cars if they were trying to advertise the "sport" part.
By the way, do you know what the LaCrosse is called in Canada? ;)
~Scott
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Dec 29 '04
4:42 pm PST
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